Quote:

I agree there, and always have. You will be hard-pressed to find a reply from me to a post with well put critisism that puts the poster down. I don't have a high tolerance for disrespect and bad language tho, and sometimes people confuse these motivations (I know you weren't referring to any of my posts being unable to take critisism)
One of the things that do bother me more and more tho is that people in general tend to drop things in a collective lap and assign highest priority to it just because they think it should be done, and done as soon as possible. I myself and Mithrandir especially have given a huge amount of our free (and some of our not-free) time to XOOPS in one way or another, and it just never seems to be enough. I'm not complaining (much) about this, the point is that I think the communications team should also address the issue of 'The XOOPS Way', which is that we're all in this together. You want something done, you do it, or find someone who wants to do it for you. But make it worth their wile. There is no XOOPS staff, noone is paid by XOOPS.org, in fact, XOOPS.org is Powered by You, it is made up out of You, it is You.

Herko

Guys... Hold on I think we need to dedicate this forum just to discuss on how the present XOOPS as it is can be made popular. Of course I don’t mean here that the drawbacks of XOOPS should be hidden yes it should be solved, and maybe a separate forum can be established where the new and existing users can discuss it.
Yes I do agree that the learning curve is there, but the solution is that maybe we just contact website developers who can take the job and do some jugglery. The support forum is there to support them initially. They themselves can evaluate XOOPS and other CMS.
Maybe everyone had some problems for the first installation but the second, third goes smooth. I think we all need to admit here that there too was a learning curve for Nuke and Mambo and so is it for other CMS.
This will give the development team more time and precise answer what the best can be done to make it more hassle free.
For out of the package installations probably we can have a hosting provider who could set the control panel such that XOOPS can be loaded without much trouble.
Simultaneously the XOOPS core team can work on how more XOOPS can be made popular.
Do something guys rather than just discussing at least make some efforts once the work is started the ways of improvement will always be opening up.
Keep Xooping
Vikrant

New post by biglove

Quote:

The only "you" in the paragraph above which was specifically directed to you personally was in the first sentence.
After that, you = XOOPS project.
This was not an attack on you.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I am not demanding features now or anything else.
What I am talking about is a focus.
These conflicting priorities between the marketing, support, and development teams
are nothing new in commercial companies.
Some things are easy and require little effort.
Some things are more substantial and require much more time and effort.

The easy things which help users happen sooner in a user-focused environment.
Example: How long would it take to copy and post for download phppp's distribution?
15 minutes max? I'll do it. Give me the permissions and I'll do it today.
Example: When I first started investigating XOOPS, I found the XOOPS for Dummie's Guide.
I asked why this was not on the XOOPS web site, or at least a link.
I offered to do it. No response.
It took another 2-3 months until the XOOPS doc site appeared.
Non-user-focus: Post no link of Dummies while developing XOOPS doc site.
User-focus: Post a link today to the Dummies web site - five minutes.

Things which help users happen sooner in a user-focused environment.
Much of this is focus and priority, not a lot of work.

Marketing and Communications
I started this discussion of user-focus in the context of target markets.
The point being - to be successful in a target market (a particular kind of user),
there needs to be a focus on that particular user's needs.
That is the way marketing usually works.

Marketing is communicating to potential users (customers) how
the product meets their particular needs.

If the goal is to have more people using and contribution to XOOPS,
telling the world "XOOPS is great" will have little effect.

Telling a church director the specific benefits of using XOOPS to
manage their community web site will have a much greater response.
That is a specific target market which can be cultivated with marketing.
It is a market which the current XOOPS capabilities can meet their needs.

Then, that user must be able to install and configure XOOPS.
This is the weak link - this is where user-focus becomes important.
If this user is not a tech geek, they will not ever get this done.
All the marketing in the world will not fix this.
An easy-to-install pre-configured package designed for communities will.
The last step = end-user-focus.

This is the point.
Marketing cannot sell a product that does not meet a user's needs.
Trying to do so is a waste of time and effort.
Plenty of commercial failures to demonstrate this.

You (yes, I actually do mean you now Herko) have told me you want to
expand XOOPS usage beyond the geek community.
This user-focus is what it will take.
We may want to pick a target user which will require the least
amount of development effort.
For example: religious communities may require only a packaged XOOPS.
This will definitely add users, but are they the users you want the most?

I don't know if this target user fits with the goals of the XOOPS Foundation.
You tell me.
You want more corporate users?
This is going to require meeting the corporate users needs.

Using marketing communications to get a corporate user to look at XOOPS
only to dismiss it because it does not meet their needs is again
a waste of everyone's time.

Target Markets
I have asked for your input here.
My understanding is you and the board are going to discuss this and get back to me.

Techies? We can target more of them it you want.
Web designers is the only one I can think of - any more ideas?
Small group, mostly geeks.
(BTW - see "geek" as a compliment, it implies technical expertise to me.)
They are obviously the type of user who will embrace XOOPS as-is.

You have expressed an interest in getting more non-geek users. Who?
I tossed out some ideas in the previous post regarding the SWOT analysis.
I/we need the board input here, along with hopefully a commitment to
focus on meeting that particular non-geek-user's needs.

Once we have a couple target markets, we can get started with the SWOT
and gathering the appropriate authors and publications for a media list.
The media list is made up of the media which the target market reads.
Don't know the target market, cannot determine the media.

Regards,

KM

Quote:

M,

Critical posts like that demonstrating a complete lack of marketing knowledge and a complete lack of understanding of the goals and the capabilites of marketing and PR, along with how difficult this has become makes me wonder if we are attempting the impossible.

Perhaps this will only be embraced and valued if one day there is a commercial arm to XOOPS similar to MySQL. That may be the only way it ever happens because then the motivations will be in place to seek the benefits of good marketing and PR. I dunno. This is looking more and more like a long uphill battle.

KM

Quote:
I'm not Herko, but I'll try my 2 kopeyka

1. SOHO segment - owners of business will must (err... have) to know, why and how (and IS) XOOPS suit their needs - fast, powerful, cost-effective solution for both B2C and B2B communications
2. Web-studios, which can get <....> benefits from using XOOPS as main (one of most important) development platform (I know teams with own CMS, with Mambo, eZ, *Nuke, but never found any well-established comany with XOOPS in mainstream)

Well, all 4 start

Ken, Rome was not built in one day. It needs to be done brick by brick. Our advantage is the foundation(s) already being there

We can use all the help we can get.

Martijn

Quote:
I know, there was no misunderstanding on that part. I'm sorry if you thought there was. I wanted to make a point about people in general looking at XOOPS as a place to dump requests and prioritise them, without much regards for the situation of a community effort. I agree that we need focus, and think we should get this thing started as soon as possible.

Herko

I'm not certain if Ken was refering to my comments as being critical or not. As Ken himself said,
"Blunt comments and opinions and a healthy dose of reality are the market researcher's best friend. Some people may be offended by the criticism."
However, I was not critising anyone, merely trying to distill a complex topic into a simple one.

Regardless, it seems that XOOPS is lacking a common vision for what we are trying to accomplish.

I'm biased towards picking 1 simple, measurable goal.
i.e. Number of Installed versions of Xoops

Maybe you guys want to pick some other goal. If there is a beter one, it should be shared. I only know the one I would pick.

Because the way I see it, all the other goals:
-more PR
-more articles
-more awards
-better install packages
-better User Interface

All seem to be intended to make XOOPS more appealing to potential XOOPS 'clients'.
So, it would seem the implicit goal is:

To increase the number of installed versions of XOOPS on the internet.

There are lots of different markets we can go after to accomplish this goal. ( corporate clients, hobbyists, other marketers ) However, the end goal is the same.

We must be careful to not confuse the 'ends' with the 'means' because to do that we would not see the 'forest for the trees'.

If I'm wrong, someone please correct me.

The first goal of the Marketing Team should be to help XOOPS core developers clarify their Vision. Everything else stems from that.

I know that Ken is trying to do this.
I'm merely offering options.

cheers :)

You're right.
It is obvious to me you have a better grasp of the issues.
All this other marketing and PR mumbo jumbo is a waste of time.
I hereby pass the torch to your leadership.

KM

p.s. Taking quotes out of context is always a useful tool in debate. Excellent.