61
gecko
Re: XOOPS Project Council - Current situation
  • 2007/6/25 22:30

  • gecko

  • Not too shy to talk

  • Posts: 152

  • Since: 2004/10/11


Please please keep this positive and loose the accusations, we don't need another blow up, we just need progress.

62
phppp
Re: XOOPS Project Council - Current situation
  • 2007/6/26 19:03

  • phppp

  • XOOPS Contributor

  • Posts: 2857

  • Since: 2004/1/25


Thank JMorris for the inputs.
I would clarify a little bit to make it clear.

Quote:

JMorris wrote:
Prior to Skalpa’s departure from XOOPS, there were 5 members of the Management structure of XOOPS.

Skalpa (Core Development/Project Management)
Rowd (Core Development/WWW site manager)
Ana (Addons/Demo site manager)
Herko (Foundation Chairman/XOOPS Project Treasurer)
JMorris (Community site manager/Server Administrator)

The above should be described as "some people who were supposed to be responsible for a certain of tasks".
The only "structured management unit" for XOOPS Project was a XOOPS Project Council established more than one year ago.
The Council members included skalpa, phppp, JMorris and two others. JMorris quit very early. The Council itself had never been active, nor officially announced.

Before skalpa's departure, skalpa and me were project administrators. When he left he added JMorris as an administrator but he did not explain JMorris' role when he talked with me on MSN on the day of his departure. Anyway JMorris and me have been working happily and efficiently in the past weeks, and in the future, I believe.


Quote:

the current management structure of XOOPS is as follows:

JMorris (Project Manager)
Phppp (Core Development)
Herko (Foundation Chairman)
Tom (Marketing and Communications)

Foundation, currently represented by Herko, is never intended to be part of XOOPS "management structure" according to the nature of XOOPS Foundation based on Herko's explanation to me.
Currently the "management structure" is not available yet.
However during the transient period, I has been taking the lead role for establishing XOOPS Project teams and invited JMorris and tom as temporary council members to assist in the procedure, never with task assignments and specified areas. The temporary status for the new Project Council is about to close and their efforts in the past weeks are much appreciated.



In the past XOOPS has been suffered too much from its lack of communication and non-transparent management, just like the unknown "management structure" mentioned above.

It's time for us to move forward and to build XOOPS an open-source project upon open communication, open management and open development.

63
chippyash
Re: XOOPS Project Council - Current situation
  • 2007/6/26 19:52

  • chippyash

  • Friend of XOOPS

  • Posts: 501

  • Since: 2004/1/29


It is not my habit to quote an entire message but I must take exception on this one.

You want to clarify: You haven't. What you've actually said to distill the entire content of this message is that you've effectively taken over.

1/ Tom and JMorris are thanked for their contribution and dismissed

2/ Herko never was.

3/ The XOOPS Council never was (and still isn't.)

4/ Despite your protestation that you are seeking Open Management, we still don't have any.

If my own personal experience in the last few weeks is anything to go by, this project is doomed to failure simply because you have taken too much on and in the wrong way.

You have quoted XOOPS Council as being a bar to the Module Developers team not being able to set up camp in a private forum ( as a way of gathering thoughts as a team [I beleive the core dev team are using third party methods of doing the same thing], prior to public consultation,) yet you here announce that XOOPS Council doesn't exist.

5/ You want Open communication.

Bring it on.

6/ You want Open development.

Development is the only word that I actually believe is true. The closed down shop that you presided over in the last year was certainly not open.

So D.J., you want openness. You got it. If you want to be the XOOPS leader, then you have a great number of bridges to cross yet.

For the benefit of those just listening in, as of 3 weeks ago, I was just a moderator. As of 8 months or so ago I was just an end user, albeit active in module development. I naively volunteered to be the Mod Dev Team leader in response to D.J.'s call to action, and have had to seriously reconsider that in the last few days.

I can back up everything I have said here either from public record or from responses to PM's (unfortunately the XOOPS PM system doesn't allow outgoing message to be kept.)

I give you a challenge:

Establish a XOOPS Council in the next two weeks. Forget core development, you want to be the leader .. so lead. The developers (good men all) can do their job. You do your self appointed one. If you can't do that, then retire and leave it to those who can.

A


Quote:

phppp wrote:
Thank JMorris for the inputs.
I would clarify a little bit to make it clear.

Quote:

JMorris wrote:
Prior to Skalpa’s departure from XOOPS, there were 5 members of the Management structure of XOOPS.

Skalpa (Core Development/Project Management)
Rowd (Core Development/WWW site manager)
Ana (Addons/Demo site manager)
Herko (Foundation Chairman/XOOPS Project Treasurer)
JMorris (Community site manager/Server Administrator)

The above should be described as "some people who were supposed to be responsible for a certain of tasks".
The only "structured management unit" for XOOPS Project was a XOOPS Project Council established more than one year ago.
The Council members included skalpa, phppp, JMorris and two others. JMorris quit very early. The Council itself had never been active, nor officially announced.

Before skalpa's departure, skalpa and me were project administrators. When he left he added JMorris as an administrator but he did not explain JMorris' role when he talked with me on MSN on the day of his departure. Anyway JMorris and me have been working happily and efficiently in the past weeks, and in the future, I believe.


Quote:

the current management structure of XOOPS is as follows:

JMorris (Project Manager)
Phppp (Core Development)
Herko (Foundation Chairman)
Tom (Marketing and Communications)

Foundation, currently represented by Herko, is never intended to be part of XOOPS "management structure" according to the nature of XOOPS Foundation based on Herko's explanation to me.
Currently the "management structure" is not available yet.
However during the transient period, I has been taking the lead role for establishing XOOPS Project teams and invited JMorris and tom as temporary council members to assist in the procedure, never with task assignments and specified areas. The temporary status for the new Project Council is about to close and their efforts in the past weeks are much appreciated.



In the past XOOPS has been suffered too much from its lack of communication and non-transparent management, just like the unknown "management structure" mentioned above.

It's time for us to move forward and to build XOOPS an open-source project upon open communication, open management and open development.

64
sailjapan
Re: XOOPS Project Council - Current situation

Got to disagree with you on a number of points there, akitson.

Namely:

Quote:

akitson wrote:
1/ Tom and JMorris are thanked for their contribution and dismissed


Quote:

phppp wrote:
during the transient period, I has been taking the lead role for establishing XOOPS Project teams and invited JMorris and tom as temporary council members to assist in the procedure, never with task assignments and specified areas. The temporary status for the new Project Council is about to close and their efforts in the past weeks are much appreciated.

I read this to mean that the temporary project council period is coming to an end, and that we can expect an announcement regarding the final P.C. shortly.
I also read it to mean that phppp took the lead in opening debate/discussion on the teams that will supply members of the P.C. (as in he wrote the first posts proposing team formation in most of the threads on this forum).

Quote:

akitson wrote:
2/ Herko never was.


Quote:

phppp wrote:
Foundation, currently represented by Herko, is never intended to be part of XOOPS "management structure" according to the nature of XOOPS Foundation based on Herko's explanation to me.

(My bold.) Seems like phppp is saying here that Herko has explained that the foundation is not a division of the management team.

Quote:

akitson wrote:
3/ The XOOPS Council never was (and still isn't.)

Quote:

phppp wrote:
The Council members included skalpa, phppp, JMorris and two others. JMorris quit very early. The Council itself had never been active, nor officially announced.

I'd interpret this as meaning that the P.C. has been dysfunctional for the last year.

Quote:

akitson wrote:
4/ Despite your protestation that you are seeking Open Management, we still don't have any.

We're talking this over, aren't we?

Quote:

akitson wrote:
If my own personal experience in the last few weeks is anything to go by, this project is doomed to failure simply because you have taken too much on and in the wrong way.

Jeepers, the fella stood up when no-one else did and slapped some life back into the project. Of course he's taken a load on. But, as he stated earlier, the temporary period is almost over (witness the state of the community, dev and core teams amongst others. All roaring ahead purposefully once more), and I don't see anything in his writing that says he's still intending to try and do everything. Give the guy a break.
Quote:

akitson wrote:
You have quoted XOOPS Council as being a bar to the Module Developers team not being able to set up camp in a private forum ( as a way of gathering thoughts as a team [I beleive the core dev team are using third party methods of doing the same thing], prior to public consultation,) yet you here announce that XOOPS Council doesn't exist.

Must have missed that one...

Quote:

akitson wrote:
5/ You want Open communication.

Bring it on.

...

Quote:

akitson wrote:
6/ You want Open development.

Development is the only word that I actually believe is true. The closed down shop that you presided over in the last year was certainly not open.

Don't think it's fair to say that anyone presided over anything much here over the last year. Certainly one guy on a dysfunctional P.C.

Quote:

akitson wrote:
So D.J., you want openness. You got it. If you want to be the XOOPS leader, then you have a great number of bridges to cross yet.

Where does he say he wants to be leader?

Quote:

akitson wrote:
For the benefit of those just listening in, as of 3 weeks ago, I was just a moderator. As of 8 months or so ago I was just an end user, albeit active in module development. I naively volunteered to be the Mod Dev Team leader in response to D.J.'s call to action, and have had to seriously reconsider that in the last few days.

I wouldn't say 'naively'... 'bravely' perhaps, or 'public spiritedly' even.

Quote:

akitson wrote:
I give you a challenge:

Establish a XOOPS Council in the next two weeks. Forget core development, you want to be the leader .. so lead. The developers (good men all) can do their job. You do your self appointed one. If you can't do that, then retire and leave it to those who can.


... I'll say it again. It sounds like an announcement regarding the council is about to be released to me.
I'll say this again too. It doesn't sound to me like he's laying any claim to leadership in this next stage.
The remainder doesn't need a reply.

I'll be charitable here, and assume that you are not used to speaking with people who's first language is not English. I sincerely believe though, that you've got ahold of the wrong end of the stick.

Crip
Never let a man who does not believe something can be done, talk to a man that is doing it.

65
debianus
Re: XOOPS Project Council - Current situation
  • 2007/6/26 22:49

  • debianus

  • Not too shy to talk

  • Posts: 179

  • Since: 2006/12/17


phppp has said what he has said and it does not need to be clarified; if something needs to be clarified by the proposal of akitson it would to be done for phppp.

akitson already made another proposal on 21-6. No answer.

Facts:

Quote:
10-6, phppp wrote: Now, before the Council is established officially, as the Project Leader, I would like to invite the following two as temporary members of the Council to assist the project management in any aspects

Quote:
21-6, tom wrote: According to DJ the council is not established as yet, only proposed, we're awaiting his confirmation on establishment before we can proceed.

Quote:
21-6; irmtfan wrote: now all final decisions should come from Council team that have 3 members ( Yes this is a transient or what else you name team but anyway they chosen for this team to do their job and we should start from somewhere):
- phppp
- jmorris
- tom
so they should work as a team and vote for everything.
again you see Project Manager is not above Council team and is not important at all.
what is not clear is:
- what is their important decisions?
- who make this decisions? again it should come from a true voting system not by a single person.
- 2 out of 3 votes for everything is enough for accept it. what is these votes?

Quote:
21-6; JMorris wrote: Now, whether the proposal to carry out the original plans or whether new plans are drafted, I think it is imperative that we clearly establish who will be the people who make the final call are and we clearly define the procedures for the decision making.
We cannot operate under the direction of 1 person at this point. There must be a proper representation from all areas of XOOPS if we are going to restructure XOOPS so that it meets the needs of the majority.
The impression Tom and I had was that we would have equal say in this council. We were then told that the council was not in effect; therefore, we had no vote.

Quote:
23-6; vaughan wrote: but I also agree, that all the decisions that have been made lately have been made by 1 person and not discussed with other council members, and I ask, if james & Tom have no say then what's the point of them being council members even if temporary??? but the way things are at moment, it's still a dictatorship (for want of a better word) and not a democracy (which it should be).

Quote:
26-6 phppp: However during the transient period, I has been taking the lead role for establishing XOOPS Project teams and invited JMorris and tom as temporary council members to assist in the procedure, never with task assignments and specified areas.


No changes since 10-6. Nobody needs comments about this: it is very clear.

"Assist" means "To give support to in some undertaking or effort, or in time of distress; to help; to aid; to succor". I do not read "to vote".

XOOPS Project Council - Current situation: not to be

66
MadFish
Re: XOOPS Project Council - Current situation
  • 2007/6/27 1:31

  • MadFish

  • Friend of XOOPS

  • Posts: 1056

  • Since: 2003/9/27


Quote:
In the past XOOPS has been suffered too much from its lack of communication and non-transparent management, just like the unknown "management structure" mentioned above.

It's time for us to move forward and to build XOOPS an open-source project upon open communication, open management and open development.


It's great that these issues have finally been recognised at the top, after *years* of frustration (really, its been *years*). I look forward to a new open approach of doing business!

Thank you.

67
irmtfan
Re: XOOPS Project Council - Current situation
  • 2007/6/27 2:21

  • irmtfan

  • Module Developer

  • Posts: 3419

  • Since: 2003/12/7


Quote:

No changes since 10-6. Nobody needs comments about this: it is very clear.

"Assist" means "To give support to in some undertaking or effort, or in time of distress; to help; to aid; to succor". I do not read "to vote".

XOOPS Project Council - Current situation: not to be

the only assistance i can imagine for a member of council is make decisions and this job is voting required.(Yes after long conversations but finally it need a vote from every Council member because you have 3 person at the stage with different Opinions)
so sorry but still it needs to be clarified.
what were Tom and JMorris assistants other than decisions?
(i dont like to read and write long posts so i stop at this point.also btw it is and was obvious)

68
chippyash
Re: XOOPS Project Council - Current situation
  • 2007/6/27 5:28

  • chippyash

  • Friend of XOOPS

  • Posts: 501

  • Since: 2004/1/29


sailjapan


The following is a PM from phppp to me
Quote:

Hi Ashley,

Before the team is officially announced by Project Council, please use the "XOOPS Project team forum (temporary)". If you need a dedicated forum, I can open a temporary one under that forum board.


D.J.
Quote:


akitson wrote:
D.J.

I PM'd John Seymour asking him to set up a private team forum for Mod Dev. Was he the right one to ask? If not who is?

Thanks
Ashley


Officially announced !?!?

Quote:
XOOPS Module Development Team: Team leader and member candidates are available, as well as relevant discussions and proposals
See here for context

See also HERE for announcement of the Mod Dev team including the quote
Quote:
great job akitson
from phppp.

D.J. is playing games here. Either the Mod Dev team is in existence or it isn't. Either the Council functions or it doesn't (or functioned 'cus now D.. has announced its demise of course.)

I can also tell you that my admin access to dev.xoops.org granted by D.J. so that I could begin reviewing facilities there appears to have been revoked. Who by and on what authority I do not know. I'm *still* waiting to get access to addons.xoops.org despite multiple requests.

It appears that despite popular opinion to the reverse, and despite having a team of people ready to go, D.J. doesn't want this team to function.

salijapan said
Quote:
I'll be charitable here, and assume that you are not used to speaking with people who's first language is not English. I sincerely believe though, that you've got ahold of the wrong end of the stick.


I live in England, more specifically the Midlands. Of course I'm used to communicating with people for whom English is not their first language. Nothing D.J. has said in public or in PM's leads me to believe that my slant on things is incorrect.

I'll follow up on these things in the proper thread (Module Development Team), but I though it was worth sharing in light of the naivity being shown in this thread.

69
draj
Re: XOOPS Project Council - Current situation
  • 2007/7/4 12:42

  • draj

  • Quite a regular

  • Posts: 271

  • Since: 2005/6/23


Hi Akitson,
Quote:

akitson wrote:
D.J. is playing games here. Either the Mod Dev team is in existence or it isn't. Either the Council functions or it doesn't (or functioned 'cus now D.. has announced its demise of course.)
....
It appears that despite popular opinion to the reverse, and despite having a team of people ready to go, D.J. doesn't want this team to function.

After someone asked myself to prove my observations, I was going through the behaviour and analysing it.

I am just a bit surprised as to why did you keep your mouth shut for a very long time.

To me, DJ started showing his ridiculous behaviour a very long time ago and this was even evident and was just not playing in the last weeks when you reported above.

It is therefore, I have started a new thread in this regards. Thanks for reporting your view points and sorry that you have to undergo troubles with him.

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