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1
toddherrold
Xoops 2.3/2.4 or 3.0 update?

I think it's about time for the XOOPS community to get an update on the development of the next version of Xoops, whatever that may be called at this point - 2.3, 2.4, 3.0 or 4.0. . . whether it is ever to be released and whether development continues or not.

It's been over 1 year since 2.3 alpha was released with many promises of official versions shortly thereafter . . . and then there was nothing. I see in the SVN that the last 2.3 update was 3 months ago by Skalpa.

http://xoops.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/xoops/XoopsCore/trunk/?sortdir=down

What happened over the last year at Xoops? Why no communication? It seems like XOOPS is dying a slow and painful death.
2
comflash2
Re: Xoops 2.3/2.4 or 3.0 update?

  • 2007/3/5 4:02

  • comflash2

  • Just popping in

  • Posts: 51

  • Since: 2005/1/1 1


Agree with you. now, even Drupal can outperform XOOPS in Googgle Trend (user search frequency, reflects to popularity). XOOPS looks dying slowly. I wanna contribute something, but XOOPS seriously lack of documentation. Last time, i already said (SEE HERE), better hold all development and concentrate the documentation, so more people can contribute instead of rely on a few talented people (they may be busy with real life).

p/s: Why XOOPS even not involve Google Summer of Code (SEE HERE)? Thats FREE talented programmer will help XOOPS. There is a lot of other Open Source project involve, including Drupal and Joomla.
Act Like Lightning FLASH
3
Herko
Re: Xoops 2.3/2.4 or 3.0 update?

  • 2007/3/5 6:37

  • Herko

  • XOOPS is my life!

  • Posts: 4238

  • Since: 2002/2/4 1


You are right, of course. An update on development is indeed a good idea.

So, what has the XOOPS community been doing with the development of XOOPS 2.3/2.4/3/0 or 4.0? How many members of the community have looked into the public alpha's that have been released a while ago? How many of you did a checkout of the SVN and looked into the code and started working with it? How many of you have reported their findings back to the code development team?
These are no accusations to the community at large or anyone specific for that matter. These are questions I ask because somehow people feel that they can speak for 'the community' and ask (or demand in some cases) the 'core development staff' on an update of their work. And I thought that this was an open source software community where the community made the software. In other words: there is no staff of dedicated developers woring 'for the community', but a small (and thinly streched) group of people donating their (limited) free time and expertise to take up a huge task and responsibitily of bringing together all the community work and forging it into a cutting edge cms.
And this brings me to my other point, in fact, the one I started with. The responsibility that comes with the task of being a core developer means you have to communicate every now and again. And that hasn't happened lately. So I'll add my voice to this and ask for an update on what is happening.

We already know some of the things that are going on: JMorris explains in this thread:
Quote:
I am no longer on the Management Team, so I cannot claim to be an "Official" representative of XOOPS other than my Moderator role entitles me to. However, I still am in contact with the people who are developing this CMS and I can say a few things to help shed some light as to what is going on...

Server Migration
I'm currently working with the Foundation Chairman (Herko) and the Lead Developer (Skalpa) on migrating XOOPS.org's websites to more powerful servers that will better handle the load these sites receive. This is an enormous task that requires a significant amount of planning and background work before the first site can be moved. Herko is involved because he has the contacts and manages the finances that will be covering this expense. Skalpa is involved because the server needs certain configuration changes that he will have to specify.

Core Development
There are a few developers who are actively working on coding the core. This includes, but is not limited to Skalpa, phppp, and Rowd. I'm sure there are others, but I can only say those 3 for sure. Each one is working on a seperate aspect of the development of XOOPS. However, each of these people has had to take on numerous other tasks as well, which has slowed development down some. Development has not stopped. It's just that there isn't much going on publically.

Site Restructuring
There is a team of members and developers working on this, but each is also responsible for other tasks as well, so progrees is moving, but is a bit slow. A lot will also depend on the server migration we are working on, so they have other people they have to wait on.

Why "Key" people have not been posting
Simply put... There are only 24 hours in a day and I know for a fact that Skalpa has been working 18-20hrs a day for quite some time. He simply doesn't have time to post on this site. He and others who would normally update the community have been so busy working on development, site restructuring, server migration, and all the other tasks necessary to keep this project going that they barely have enough time for rest.

I'm not making excuses for them. I'm stating the facts as I have observed them for over 2 years of knowing these people on a personal level.

Again, I must emphasize that the above is not the "Official" word of XOOPS. It is only my observations based on my conversations with the people who are doing the work. Please take it for what it is worth.

Thanks,

JM


Herko.

Quote:

toddherrold wrote:
I think it's about time for the XOOPS community to get an update on the development of the next version of Xoops, whatever that may be called at this point - 2.3, 2.4, 3.0 or 4.0. . . whether it is ever to be released and whether development continues or not.

It's been over 1 year since 2.3 alpha was released with many promises of official versions shortly thereafter . . . and then there was nothing. I see in the SVN that the last 2.3 update was 3 months ago by Skalpa.

http://xoops.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/xoops/XoopsCore/trunk/?sortdir=down

What happened over the last year at Xoops? Why no communication? It seems like XOOPS is dying a slow and painful death.
4
Herko
Re: Xoops 2.3/2.4 or 3.0 update?

  • 2007/3/5 6:45

  • Herko

  • XOOPS is my life!

  • Posts: 4238

  • Since: 2002/2/4 1


Quote:

comflash2 wrote:
Agree with you. now, even Drupal can outperform XOOPS in Googgle Trend (user search frequency, reflects to popularity). XOOPS looks dying slowly. I wanna contribute something, but XOOPS seriously lack of documentation. Last time, i already said (SEE HERE), better hold all development and concentrate the documentation, so more people can contribute instead of rely on a few talented people (they may be busy with real life).

You're sending mixed singals here. Concentrate and inform about the development, or documentation? And who should do this concentrating? The community?
But you're right, XOOPS is falling back in the polls, and something should be done about that. See my previous post above, and you'll see something IS being done about it. Maybe not fast enough for everyones taste, but hey, it's a community effort.
Quote:
p/s: Why XOOPS even not involve Google Summer of Code (SEE HERE)? Thats FREE talented programmer will help XOOPS. There is a lot of other Open Source project involve, including Drupal and Joomla.

two reasons:
1. we're not drupal and/or joomla. sounds silly, but when you look at it, it's just as silly as saying that because they're there, we should be too.
2. the core devs are streched thin as it is, and these new talents need to be mentored by people who know what they're doing (aka core developers). These are the people that the community think should concentrate on development, communication, documentation, marketing, external contacts, integration of 3rd party scripts and support.

Maybe the GSC will happen for XOOPS if a developer steps up to be the mentor. That would be great, INHO.

Anyone in the community willing to be the mentor for the FREE new talent (talent is never free!) in the Google Summer of Code??

Herko
5
comflash2
Re: Xoops 2.3/2.4 or 3.0 update?

  • 2007/3/5 7:31

  • comflash2

  • Just popping in

  • Posts: 51

  • Since: 2005/1/1 1


Herko.. i hope you don't feel insulted. Don't get my message wrong. I really respect all XOOPS developer, especially on their talent and scarification. I'm not blaming any of you, and as developer, i believe i understand your feeling. i believe why XOOPS looks dying slowly not because of active developer/contributor, but it because too many leecher. They want something from XOOPS but they won't contribute anything to XOOPS. Thats my point.

So, I talk here, from the LEECHER perspective (including me). Believe or not, leecher devided in to 2 groups, 1 is really happy to be a leecher forever, and another one want to go out from being leecher but need some help from YOU (active developer) to go out from leecher community.

I believe, currently XOOPS lack of active contributor compared to joomla/drupal. Do you think I happy with this? not at all. I know i can contribute something, since i myself is programmer. However, i only have little time to contribute, and i don't have time to read ALL XOOPS source code and try to understand how to use it.

I want to stress my point, believe it or not, the ROOT of most of XOOPS problem is lack of active contributor. If we want to IMPROVE XOOPS, we need to fix the ROOT problem, not the problem that born from the root.

AND I BELIEVE we can fix this ROOT problem is by having GOOD documentation, including (have some but mostly not complete and outdated):

1) List all XOOPS API and their usage (eg: with examples)
2) Have some tutorial, how to develop modules and using XOOPS API correctly
3) Step by step tutorial how to create template
4) Step by step how to install xoops, install module etc (xoops have it, but not updated)

And all of this ONLY can be done by active contributor (except no 4) that know inside and outside XOOPS code. You SHOULD'T aspect LEECHER like us to do that. We know nothing (or very minimal) about XOOPS.

Thats why i HIGHLY recommend all active contributor to STOP all development (including modules) and CONCENTRATE for a few month to complete the documentation.

I believe, when XOOPS have very good documentation, gradually leecher will upgrade themself become active contributor and the original active contributor can concentrate on CORE development, instead of BUSY with modules.
Act Like Lightning FLASH
6
toddherrold
Re: Xoops 2.3/2.4 or 3.0 update?

I guess I'm a leecher. I've used XOOPS for a few websites for several years. I'm not a php programmer so there is little I can contribute beyond helping other users in the community and troubleshooting bugs. . I've done this quite a bit.

I have to say that I find the discussion of leechers very strange and it basically confirms my suspicion that XOOPS remains plagued by the political/personal issues that have wrecked this project over the last few years.

It's sad. . . but to blame the user community for not contributing to a project that is lead by "some" people who don't allow contributions is pretty offensive.
7
Stewdio
Re: Xoops 2.3/2.4 or 3.0 update?

  • 2007/3/11 2:19

  • Stewdio

  • Community Support Member

  • Posts: 1560

  • Since: 2003/5/7 1


Quote:

comflash2 wrote:
i believe why XOOPS looks dying slowly not because of active developer/contributor, but it because too many leecher. They want something from XOOPS but they won't contribute anything to XOOPS. Thats my point.


What the...

Quote:

So, I talk here, from the LEECHER perspective (including me). Believe or not, leecher devided in to 2 groups, 1 is really happy to be a leecher forever, and another one want to go out from being leecher but need some help from YOU (active developer) to go out from leecher community.


I'm failing to grasp your concept of leecher and how it applies to the open source community at large.

No one here has been, currently is, or ever will be a "leecher". thats just not in the spirit of things.

Everyone is a user, and every user is a conrtibuter.

How are XOOPS users contributers? It's simple, "Just use it!"

Using the system, users familiarise themselves with many different aspects it presents. Be that simple user administration, adding a forum module to their own site, using a theme, or actually taking the bull by the horns and looking at the code to see how it works. Whether that bee a block, a module, template, or theme. Who cares. Everyone starts somewhere.

Many people in this community started off with nothing. Little knowlege of PHP, or mySQL. Many of those same so called "leechers" went on to carreers in code development because they used a system that is open to all for fair use and redistribution.

Some of the biggest contributers in the past started off knowing little more then what to put between < body > tags. WF-Modules and Smartfactory didn't appear out of thin air. Wolfcatz may be long gone, but there are still a great many people in this very community working hard on their own projects.

How can you come here and ask more of them when they are all busy trying to improve the very thing you critisize.

Quote:

I believe, currently XOOPS lack of active contributor compared to joomla/drupal. Do you think I happy with this? myself is programmer. However, i only have little time to contribute, and i don't have time to read ALL XOOPS source code and try to understand how to use it.
not at all. I know i can contribute something, since i


Do you think your the only person here who has a lack of time to contribute? How incredibly hypocritical! I say it again, how can you come here and accuse others of not contributiong, when they are in the same position as you. Lack of time, resources, what have you.

Quote:

I want to stress my point, believe it or not, the ROOT of most of XOOPS problem is lack of active contributor. If we want to IMPROVE XOOPS, we need to fix the ROOT problem, not the problem that born from the root.


Your no help. What? Complaining helps? Do something about it!

Quote:

AND I BELIEVE we can fix this ROOT problem is by having GOOD documentation, including (have some but mostly not complete and outdated):


How dare you use the word "WE" when you have done nothing to contribute by your own admission. Excuses are nothing more then that.

Quote:


1) List all XOOPS API and their usage (eg: with examples)
2) Have some tutorial, how to develop modules and using XOOPS API correctly
3) Step by step tutorial how to create template
4) Step by step how to install xoops, install module etc (xoops have it, but not updated)


You have suggestions. Great, keep them coming. There's nothing new here, people are aware of all this and from what I can tell are working to keep things updated and documented as best as they can.

Quote:

You SHOULD'T aspect LEECHER like us to do that. We know nothing (or very minimal) about XOOPS.


Speak for yourself.

Quote:

Thats why i HIGHLY recommend all active contributor to STOP all development (including modules) and CONCENTRATE for a few month to complete the documentation.


You have got to be kidding me!

You want all the documentation work done for you. You want everything spelled out for you step by step, so that you can attempt to make a contribution. You know what, nevermind...

Quote:

I believe, when XOOPS have very good documentation, gradually leecher will upgrade themself become active contributor and the original active contributor can concentrate on CORE development, instead of BUSY with modules.


You have no idea how the many different areas around here work do you? Cut with the kyfe and put your fingers where your keyboard is.

XOOPS afterall is powered by you!
XOOPS Community Support
8
skenow
Re: Xoops 2.3/2.4 or 3.0 update?

  • 2007/3/11 2:26

  • skenow

  • Home away from home

  • Posts: 993

  • Since: 2004/11/17


Quote:

toddherrold wrote:
I have to say that I find the discussion of leechers very strange and it basically confirms my suspicion that XOOPS remains plagued by the political/personal issues that have wrecked this project over the last few years.

It's sad. . . but to blame the user community for not contributing to a project that is lead by "some" people who don't allow contributions is pretty offensive.


Actually, 'leechers' are still quite common in online communities. Attributing the lack of participation of the XOOPS community (especially since it is an open source community) to a lack of leadership just doesn't sit well with me, nor is it supported by the experience around the 'net. Just read this article - and change 'lurkers' to 'leechers'.

Instead of trying to fix the blame, how about we work together to fix the problem?

Here at Xoops, there are 44,938 registered members.
How many have logged in in the last 30 days? 1961. (4.4%)
How many have joined in the last 30 days? 870
In the last 30 days, no more than 991 people have posted. (2.2%)(hard to say with this one)
9
svaha
Re: Xoops 2.3/2.4 or 3.0 update?

  • 2007/3/11 10:43

  • svaha

  • Just can't stay away

  • Posts: 896

  • Since: 2003/8/2 2


Quote:

toddherrold wrote:
I think it's about time for the XOOPS community to get an update on the development of the next version of Xoops, whatever that may be called at this point - 2.3, 2.4, 3.0 or 4.0. . . whether it is ever to be released and whether development continues or not.

It's been over 1 year since 2.3 alpha was released with many promises of official versions shortly thereafter . . . and then there was nothing. I see in the SVN that the last 2.3 update was 3 months ago by Skalpa.

http://xoops.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/xoops/XoopsCore/trunk/?sortdir=down

What happened over the last year at Xoops? Why no communication? It seems like XOOPS is dying a slow and painful death.


The link is death, so I think you're right.
I've seen this kind of topic often and it leads to nothing, no answer, no communication, just diversion from the beginning point and that's sad.
A brief explanation of what's really going on would be sufficient.
I myself missed the 'testing of the alpha' but always willing to do something in return, so where would I find this alpha version?
10
Herko
Re: Xoops 2.3/2.4 or 3.0 update?

  • 2007/3/11 11:03

  • Herko

  • XOOPS is my life!

  • Posts: 4238

  • Since: 2002/2/4 1


Yes, it is sad that there's no communication. But people complaining about not being informed does tend to put the developers off. It doesn't add to their motivation to do all that work for everyone. And when that happens, they will do what they want to do, and that might or might not be develop code in silence.

I don't know what is going on exactly. What I do know has been posted and referred to. That's what everyone has got to go on at the moment.

Here's a link to the daily snapshots tho, for those of you who don't know where to find the latest code: http://devteam.xoops.org/snapshots/

Here you can download what is in the repository. And start testing. However, software development has several phases, and the phase of alpha releases does not include end-user functionality testing. Testing means diving into the code and see how things work. Understanding the logic, and what it means for building other parts of the code. That's the phase we're in now, so there's no 'hey, this page is blank, lets report a bug' or 'my module doesn't work in this version, lets report it'.

Alpha releases are for coders. Read the code. Learn. Understand. That's what it is for.

Herko
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