Can I just clarify something please.

I have read few items relating to the current and planned releases of Xoops.

The idea of not including modules seems kind of stupid to me, there are so many modules available, and I know from my own experience that some of them shouldn't be there - I have come across loads of modules that are broken and either take ages to sort out or you deem them not worth it and try the next one.

I think this will scare users away - I don't mean the hard core xoopsters or even those that are happy with their XOOPS installation, I mean the newbies, the groups of people that come along to try XOOPS after you stop bundling modules.

I like XOOPS a lot, I have some gripes, but on the whole I like it, I will not deny that I have tried to move from XOOPS a few times in the past, on each occasion I tried an alternative or maybe a few alternatives, and each time I got lost in the alternative way of doing things - or not knowing how to get X to work, or Y to do Z.

If a newbie come along to try XOOPS and finds that the first 4 modules they try are broken in someway then yes we have a great community, but why bother wasting time to find out how to resolve it, they don't know if XOOPS can even meet their requirements yet - they might as well move onto the next CMS.

I said earlier that the alternatives did not work out for me - that is only becuase I stumbled across XOOPS first, the one that works straight away is the one your going to try to work with. Newbies are going to find mambo, phpnuke or other works straight away, yes they have to learn how to tweak and customise it - but at least it all works.

Moving on, the idea of having module packs for different types of sites - seems like a good idea, I guess coming along getting the core and the module pack for a games site - would be great - a complete site out of a box.

BUT - its also stupid, there will be loads of sites that look the same with perhaps a different theme.
I presume that the modules chosen to make up these packs will all be tested to make sure they work?
What about sites that offer a certain content, but want to offer it in a different way to the other sites offering the same content? Will you still be able to find individual modules from the XOOPS site? (That also annoyed me with some of the alternatives - when you have to search the web for modules)

I think the XOOPS project is good, I think the idea of making a core seperate from the modules, is kind of good, but I think you should spend the time making decent modules that work.

I sound like a dick trying to start a slanging match - I don't mean to, I just think that the direction that XOOPS is going in is not so good.On the whole I am happy with xoops, I think the community can be really great, most of the modules are excellent and once you pick up the basics, XOOPS is a nice product to work with.

If I have misunderstood anything, please forgive and correct me.

Thanks for reading my 'rant of the day'.

Dave

Hi Dave,

There will be module packages available focussed on type of usage. As far as I understood from discussions on this topic, there will be a quality assurance for these packs to avoid the risk of broken links.

I think seperating modules from the core will have a positive effect on module development, since developers can focus more on the requirements of the target groups. Also quality will improve for new modules with the help of the quality assurance team.

The module packs do not *replace* the actual modules, it's just a way to *distribute* modules better, making it easier for newbies to find the rights modules for their site.

Anyone can replace any module just the way it is now, but we will stop distributing a set of (old) modules alongside of the core distribution so we don't breat upgrade paths etc.

You see, at the moment we can't add the news 1.3 module to the main distribution, because it has database changes which will cause a lot of problems. But only because we have the news module included in the default distro. So, if we split the modules from the core, we can distribute upgrades independantly, and we don't break any upgrade path, making it easier for people to select any module they want, and not worry about downgrading their module next time they patch the core.

So, to summarize, the packs make life easier for new users and less experienced, without limiting their ability to use any other module they want. And it makes the whole patching and upgrading process a lot clearer (and therefore safer).

Herko

Herko
wtravel

Thanks to both of you, both of your comments have immediately helped this to make a little more sense to me.

I guess that my biggest problem is that I am just a user, I suppose people that design and develop modules as well as the core have a greater understanding on how a module can effect the core and vice versa.

I appologise for the rant as it suddenly seems like a pretty good idea

Thanks for your replies.

Dave

Quote:
Really ?
I was not aware of this !

If there are modules that dont work on 2.2 - we need to flag them up perhaps...

hervet: the problems with the modules that were distributed with the core (of which the news module is just an example), is simple:
The core distribution has the old modules. That means that patches for these old modules are core patches. The new and improved versions, are not core modules, and patches for these are module patches. If we mix these versions and patch upgrades together, you have a nice recepy for confusion.

It is actually Onokazu who forbade adding the new versions of the news, newbb modules to the core distribution.

In 2.2, we have this situation no longer (but we do have to take care we don't make the same mistake with the new 'core modules for dynamic userprofiles and PM system).

Herko

Herko,,

I understand your idea but there are two things you should consider before to write such things.
1) You can hurt me
2) Do you have any idea of the impact of your remarks on the end users ? Confusion, lake of logicial etc etc.

Don't you think that someone will take, what you wrote, for the truth ? "the last versions of the News module will cause problems"

Quote:
Not so old, they were recently ALL modified to include the ticket system.... not so old.

Quote:
Xoops 2.1 will be delivered with two new modules, I don't need to remember you this fact, like me you are following the dev. Where is the logic ?

Quote:
For what I know Onokazu has gone and he is working on his own version of Xoops.

Please explain me, you (not you personnally) have modified ALL the oldly called "core modules" for the 2.0.10 serie to include them in the new distributions but you are still refusing to see the new version in the distribution. Am I working so badly ?

Quote:
Yes, the good old modules can't be included while some new ones can be.

Sometimes it's really hard to understand, to be motivated and to follow you...

Am I loosing my time ????

Quote:
I never intend to hurt anyone, why would I start now? And how do I hurt you when I say that preventing more confusion with module versions and release packages, when I only use the news moudle as an example? I'm sorry Hervet, I never ever intend any disrespect or hurt towards you or anyone else, but this is what the rationale behind the choices that were made by the core developers is.

Quote: Ehm, I think you're focussing too much on your 'baby', the excellent news module. The whole post is about how we are creating a situation that is less confusing for all users, that is the context of this thread and the remarks I made here. Picking out one quote and dragging it out of context does make it illogical and confusing yes. But I did not do that, you just did.

Quote:
Where did I write that? I believe I wrote that adding the latest version of the XOOPS module (which has changes made to the database) will cause problems with people upgrading using the regular upgrade process, as that is only replacing files with newer ones. I further explain that people can always choose to upgrade to the newer version, but not by using a core patch. Again, please take all this in context...

Quote:These modifications were to the News 1.3 and Newbb2 modules, included in the main distribution? No, they were not. The core patch contained updates for News 1.1 and Newbb1, as well as the other modules. And this is precisely my point. We're forced to maintain separate code branches only because these modules were included as part of the core when we first started. That means that updates will include those code branches, not those improved ones that you and others have been diligently working on.

Hervet, I recommend people use the latest versions (at least the stable ones) of any module, especially those that are used most often (like the news module).

Quote:
I think you need to read the last paragraph of my previous post. I clearly stated that we do need to be careful not to make the same mistake. That means that these modules should be distributed separately, in order to maintain a clear upgrade path for both modules and core.

Quote:Why is this something we do against you? No, Hervet, it is not because there is a conspiracy against you, your work is excellent. Why else would we have asked you to join the core development team? And it strikes me ass a bit strange that we already had this discussion at dev.xoops.org, and over IM, and I think on the sf.net forums as well, and still you feel the need to post this same thing here.
The reason we don't include the new modules (the ones that have database changes) has been explained by me, and mithrandir, and skalpa, and Onokazu before, and in this thread. Asking the same questions again and insinuating it is something personal against you does not change the reason.

Quote:
Sometimes it's really hard for us (Skalpa, Mithrandir and others) to have to defend every choice made months and months ago over and over again.

So: Hervet, your news module is excellent, and I recommend it to all users who use the news module.
Hervet, you're a good developer, and that is the reason why we invited you into the core development team (XOOPS's most inner circle!)
Hervet, you are not wasting your time at all, as has been explained many times, the situation with the modules being included in the core package is being remedied with XOOPS 2.2.

Sometimes it is hard for us too...

Herko

The decision (made by me) to modularise the user and PM management and separate them from the core - but still keep them in the core - is because they are not content modules (like News, Newbb etc.) but modules that manage parts of the core or has been part of the core for a long time.

The two modules in question will be distributed with the core for the time being because they add/manage features that are tightly intertwined in the core (even though PMs are managed in a module, the core still use them with notifications, meaning that some elements (notification via PM) will stop working if this module is not installed. Likewise, editing users is no longer done in the System module, but in the Profile module.

The ultimate goal is to separate the functionality in these two modules so much that they can be removed or replaced by another module, performing the same functions better or adding additional features. If/when that happens, I see no reason to keep them in the core, but will instead put them (or their better replacements) in the module packages.