41
snow77
Re: is it time for a lead project manager?
  • 2007/4/20 11:43

  • snow77

  • Just can't stay away

  • Posts: 864

  • Since: 2003/7/23


I don't know anything about politics, but Herko has said things worth having mind.

The view I have now is:

1st) The course of this thread will get no where.

if

2nd) This thread doesn't count with it's own manager, someone who can guide the discussion into a coherent discussion, make a resume of the important points, make decisions and arrive to a structured plan that can be proposed to the actual Project leaders.

If the community isn't able chose who wants to be the manager of the idea of this thread I really doubt it possible that the community could propose managers for the areas of XOOPS that require most responsability and wise decisions.

42
riosoft
Re: is it time for a lead project manager?
  • 2007/4/20 12:16

  • riosoft

  • Not too shy to talk

  • Posts: 191

  • Since: 2003/11/8


Please, tell me. Who is Who in XOOPS at this moment? Are we speaking against a wall? Lost in the fog?
Is not necessary an official communique really given the current situation?

who have the capacity of decision at this just moment?
...

43
web-M
Re: is it time for a lead project manager?
  • 2007/4/20 12:38

  • web-M

  • Just popping in

  • Posts: 100

  • Since: 2006/1/2 2


I don't think we are talking against a wall. We are talking with eachother. And no I do not have the point of view that we are in de fog. I think XOOPS is standing on a crossing! We all want to go in the right direction. This discussion has to help ( I hope ) To come to a consensus in how we can deside which way is the best one to go for XOOPS.

And yes I agree with snow77, when nobody takes leading in this discusion it will probably will endup just linke some other did.

We have to come to a resume with can be the starting point of coming to a good plan.
(but my little child is crying right now so at the moment I have not enough time, maybe later)

44
snow77
Re: is it time for a lead project manager?
  • 2007/4/20 13:03

  • snow77

  • Just can't stay away

  • Posts: 864

  • Since: 2003/7/23


Riosoft : This question has been aroused before, and with great respects, whom Has_Moved_On, has made the best explanation he could of this.

quoting whom Has_Moved_OnQuote:

What I'm about to say is the truth to the best of my knowledge, but keep in mind that my activity in XOOPS has not been constant. There are many gaps that I cannot fill in. Also, I must emphasize that I'm only going to give a basic overview of the current state of XOOPS, as I see it. The details of *how* we ended up at this point are only important to those who relish in pointing fingers. What *is* important now is moving forward and not making the same mistake twice!

At present, the people "in charge" are the Core Developers. This came into effect when Herko ceased being the Project Manager. Basically, the idea was to form a new management structure that would oversee the community and the project as a whole, but this never came to pass.

Whether you agree with the Core Devs managing this project or not, they have worked very hard to try to do what they felt was best for this project and the community as a whole. For that, we really should give them thanks! Their minds and hearts were in the right place, but the model didn't work.

Where we are now is that the Core Devs are busy with coding XOOPS, overseeing various aspects of the site restructuring, overseeing management of the xoops.org websites, teaching new contributors about the XOOPS core, and trying to work full-time jobs and have a reasonable life outside of XOOPS.

What is most concerning is that there are currently only 3 Core Devs that I'm aware of. What does this lead to?

A Core Dev Team that is spread too thin, who are doing too many tasks, and who cannot reasonably respond to the calls for information from the community.

Now, that's not to say that the Core Devs are doing everything. Quite the contrary. They are doing much of the Coding, roadmap writing and management tasks, but they are not doing everything. There are a number of Moderators and community members who are also selflessly volunteering their time, knowledge and hard work to give the XOOPS project and community the very best. I don't know how many of these contributors there are, but I can say for certain that it is a VERY SMALL NUMBER.

So, let's take a look at this for a second...

There are 4 or less acting managers (counting Herko as Foundation Chairman) to manage an entire Open Source project. There are far less than 50 volunteers who are actively doing work to make this project move forward (I'm not counting module, hack, and theme devs who work independently of XOOPS.org). If you really want to nail down a number, it appears as though the number of consistent contributors to the overall progress of XOOPS is less than 30. Given that there are 30,000+ registered members on this site, this is absolutely inexcusable!

In all fairness, the current state of xoops.org does not lend itself well to collaboration. There are several reasons for this and I'm not going to waste my time or yours rehashing all of that. Just know it cannot be done right now!

As far as the "Management Team" goes....
It's dead! It's been dead for over a year. Before that, it was barely more than an ideal and was not even remotely effective! (This is just my opinion, but the truth is that there has been NO activity on from the Management Team in a year or more.)

At this point, you are probably wondering what work *IS* being done. Well, the answer is as much as possible with the slim resources that are available.

That *I* know of, there is a very small team (<10) who are working on the site restructuring and Core Development. There is a team of Moderators (also <10) who are trying to keep the peace and help new users. There are a number of "non-privileged" users who have stepped up who are doing their best to help other members with their questions as well (I have now idea of the number, but there are several).


Quote:

3. Allow the community to contribute in whatever way they can with the intention of enhancing the new and existing user experience, regardless of what the domain name is. As the contributions prove to be fruitful, consider integration into the parent xoops.org site if it is appropriate and SECURE.


Quote:

To those who would still criticize XOOPS and those who have NOT been putting forth effort at xoops.org... You need to take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself, "What have I done for XOOPS lately". It is easy to criticize those who are doing something. What is more important, and more effective is those who would put aside the criticism and *DO* something, anything to bring about a positive change. Think about that for a moment.


So getting back to where we were at...

Yes, as web-M put's it Quote:
I don't think we are talking against a wall. We are talking with each other.
And trying to work something out.

It's like this, if you see your city needs something, like a train railway service, you gather all the resources, make a plan with all the materials and resources you'll need, a whole thesis kind of planned projection of what it's planned to be achieved and how it can be done, and then you present it to the mayor's office.

People are able to do something if the planning is well done.

45
Lance_
Re: is it time for a lead project manager?
  • 2007/4/20 13:22

  • Lance_

  • Home away from home

  • Posts: 983

  • Since: 2004/1/12


Quote:

riosoft wrote:
Please, tell me. Who is Who in XOOPS at this moment? Are we speaking against a wall? Lost in the fog?
Is not necessary an official communique really given the current situation?

who have the capacity of decision at this just moment?


Now, as much as I enjoy this banter, and since I won't be paid attention to anyway, I still want to say my peace about it. If you want to save some reading, the last 2 paragraphs are the important ones.

Xoops is presently under the control of one person, Skalpa. This being because he is the sole decision making person for the core programming, hence the direction of xoops.

The idea of a project manager is a great idea, unfortunately unfeasible, du to the reason stated above. Herko, was doing a mighty fine job as project manager. He had to step down since what he was saying in his capacities as project manager were then refuted by Skalpa, or modified, or whatever. Skalpa's vision was different than the then publicly visible XOOPS management position.

Understandably so, noone wishes to function in that environment, Herko had no say as to the direction of xoops(or informed in policy changes) and, rightfully so, stepped down.

Our unfortunate situation remains as a communication problem between the devs and the community. So be it.

Who honestly believes that nominating a person or committee will have an inkling of power in the decision process? We already had some people close to the projects heart and permitted some d*ckheads to cr*p on their house till they left.

If you want to do anything with the project, it is to start at the base. The Foundation is key, NOT the top of the pyramid. This top spot already being dominated by the lead dev. You want to be a part of the solutions, then start helping people out. Soon you'll get a good rep, then fuse with others doing the same thing and make a team of it. Then with time, and as your reputation increases, extend your influence to other aspects of the project.

Once 2.3 is out then it will be possible to increase the developer pool, hence increasing the dimensions of the project. Until it's out, this is Skalpa's baby, and daddy decides what the baby will be able to do and learn for now.

Cheers.
GDL-Web.com :: Website development.
Xoopslance.com::Freelancing and Projects
thelionsden-arena.net:: Clan/League/Ladder Hosting

46
Herko
Re: is it time for a lead project manager?
  • 2007/4/20 13:50

  • Herko

  • XOOPS is my life!

  • Posts: 4238

  • Since: 2002/2/4 1


Thanks for the honesty in this thread, it's very invigorating. 'My' leadership model worked when 2.0.x was just released, and the community was only just starting to grow. When I started XOOPS.org had 8.500 members, when I quit, it was 45.000.
But I am no developer, and XOOPS needs development to keep alive. So I was trying to create a way that would ensure that this could happen, without me as project manager. Skalpa just forced this to be a bit sooner then I anticipated.

Now, back to this thread. Leadership is a very important thing. I'd like to pose a question.

What is the XOOPS project really? IMHO there is (core) development, corporate communications, (international)community support and 3rd party development.

The first, core development, already has its leadership model. This is the open source software development model, and is pretty straightforward. There is a lead developer, who doesn't need a body of people trying to influence the work of his team. Anyone can join in development, provided they add to the pool of resources.

Corporate communications is a task for the Foundation IMHO, as the official representation of the XOOPS project. It'll need more members of course, and a way for the community to be able to participate, but I already have that prepapred. Pending this discussion here, I'll call for new members real soon. So there's a leadership structure ther as well. The Foundation itself doesn't lead anything, just support the project.

International community support is what happens here on xoops.org at the moment. Support forums, FAQ, documentation, training, that sort of thing. What kind of leadership does this need, really? Any structural leadership? I can't think of anything that needs structural community leadership. We'd need moderators, reporters for news, maintainers and editors for FAQ and such. But a leadership structure, IMHO no.

3rd party development of modules and themes is by definition outside of the leadership structure of the XOOPS project.

You don't have to agree, but I'd like to see where and why you disagree Maybe this will get us closer to a more suitable (and ultimately succesfull) leadership model for the XOOPS project.

The 5-headed dragon that is proposed has failed 3 times already, as Core Team, Managament Team and whatever followed. I don't see why it would work this time

Herko

47
snow77
Re: is it time for a lead project manager?
  • 2007/4/20 14:38

  • snow77

  • Just can't stay away

  • Posts: 864

  • Since: 2003/7/23


When I've referred to 'managers', I don't mean in the sense of dictator kind of ones, but more like forming workgroup teams (their all managers at the same, no one is greater than another) and I do think any kind of team work needs people to assume certain roles (which can be switchable roles... like one day it's A turn to take notes, the next it'll be B's turn cause A will be busy with another task) and coordinate in between each other things.

So if a miracle happens and this thread ends up uniting people and forming teams that can attend the different community areas of xoops,

quoting Herko Quote:
International community support is what happens here on xoops.org at the moment. Support forums, FAQ, documentation, training, that sort of thing. What kind of leadership does this need, really? Any structural leadership? I can't think of anything that needs structural community leadership. We'd need moderators, reporters for news, maintainers and editors for FAQ and such. But a leadership structure, IMHO no.


That would be great.

Ladysham, wants to write the XOOPS newsletter.... so that shows there are people with a positive attitude wanting to do something.

When I talk about planning is that when/if these teams form, they need to plan well what they will do and how they will do it, to see if it is something reasonable and doable within the community site.

As I see it, looking at the community site, it's up to the people how they want it to be. Team work, coordination and planning the solution. The community is responsible of the making it possible and is responsible of the results, since it seems to me that when something goes wrong the wrong person is being blamed.

So would identifying the different areas of the community site that need work on, ex. faq, news, forum, and forming team work be some kind of progress?

PS, I'm more part of the meritocracy side than the democracy one.

For those of you that decide to get your hands dirty with real work, congratulations.

48
davidl2
Re: is it time for a lead project manager?
  • 2007/4/20 14:41

  • davidl2

  • XOOPS is my life!

  • Posts: 4843

  • Since: 2003/5/26


Re: Herko's post above:

Quoted from a discussion with JMorris in IM (with permission):

What I would like to publically say in response to his post is this...
A good example is the Moderator Team. There has not been a "Leader" of that team in months, yet it is functioning successfully without the first bout of infighting.

If an issue comes up, the team discusses it sensibly and uses XOOPSiquette as it's guiding force. If someone wants to join, the team discusses the candidate's history and contribution and decides yes, or no based on that person's merit. There is no person with a "Final word". It's all majority consensus.

49
Dave_L
Re: is it time for a lead project manager?
  • 2007/4/20 15:10

  • Dave_L

  • XOOPS is my life!

  • Posts: 2277

  • Since: 2003/11/7


I'm not sure that the Moderator Team is a good example; not because it doesn't do a good job, which it does, but because its purpose is much different than that of managing the XOOPS project.

As I mentioned in my post on the first page of this thread, we keep losing sight of the fact that XOOPS is a product. The organization and community are important too, but the product must come first.

50
MadFish
Re: is it time for a lead project manager?
  • 2007/4/20 15:28

  • MadFish

  • Friend of XOOPS

  • Posts: 1056

  • Since: 2003/9/27


If I may be honest, I'm a bit tired of the argument that 'theres not enough people actively contributing'. There's a good reason for that: Concrete technical contributions and various offers of assistance from community members are usually either a) ignored or b) refused.

There are many people who want to contribute but they can't because there is NO MECHANISM for them to do so, or even to find out what is going on. This is one of the key frustrations that has been expressed by so many people.

Personally I think we do need to have a few people with responsibility for various aspects of xoops. But their main job should be to COORDINATE and facilitate input from the wider community, not to do the work themselves, and definitely not to lock others out.

I would love to see an open team structure where anyone with the will and ability to contribute can participate.

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