1
snow77
XHTML & CSS [designing without tables]
  • 2006/1/10 3:02

  • snow77

  • Just can't stay away

  • Posts: 864

  • Since: 2003/7/23


I was wondering if there is an iniciative in making a revision of XOOPS most important modules and redoing their templates without using tables? If a theme is 100% validated XHTML and CSS as soon as some of the modules are installed it loses the validation. This would be a good thing to look into for the future.

2
Mithrandir
Re: XHTML & CSS [designing without tables]

Yes, there is initiatives to get theme developers and module developers work closer together to allow for better possibilities of a theme deciding the look of a module without the module's templates making it look out of style.

What XHTML and CSS validation has to do with tables, you'll need to explain further. To my knowledge a well-formed table is not against any XHTML or CSS validation rules.
"When you can flatten entire cities at a whim, a tendency towards quiet reflection and seeing-things-from-the-other-fellow's-point-of-view is seldom necessary."

Cusix Software

3
Herko
Re: XHTML & CSS [designing without tables]
  • 2006/1/14 15:31

  • Herko

  • XOOPS is my life!

  • Posts: 4238

  • Since: 2002/2/4 1


Tables are perfectly OK for presenting tabular data, but not ok for positioning elements on a page. I'm guessing this is the main difference.

Herko

4
dotmil
Re: XHTML & CSS [designing without tables]
  • 2006/1/14 20:06

  • dotmil

  • Friend of XOOPS

  • Posts: 51

  • Since: 2004/9/6 2


The problem also comes in when the tables have their own styles hardcoded in. This usually breaks XHTML validation.
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5
snow77
Re: XHTML & CSS [designing without tables]
  • 2006/1/15 0:18

  • snow77

  • Just can't stay away

  • Posts: 864

  • Since: 2003/7/23


Gober:

Quote:
Nor do I believe in the magical and mystical claims that firefox it overtaking IE.Has it gained some shares, yah.


Have you checked out the webstats of your website lately?

Quote:
Has it gain enough to make Bill and the boys worried. No. I would love nothing more to see FF pull it off but until or if that day happens I show in IE first, make it look ok in FF second.


From my point of view, I don't care if "Bill and the boys" are worried or not. I care more about the users that visit my sites. Therefore I study and learn everyday from the best examples I can find in internet.

What I've learned so far is to look in to Firefox first then IE.

IE sooner or later will have to "catch up" to Firefox.

6
Goober
Re: XHTML & CSS [designing without tables]
  • 2006/1/15 0:38

  • Goober

  • Not too shy to talk

  • Posts: 101

  • Since: 2003/3/30


Quote:
Have you checked out the webstats of your website lately?


Every day. Wouldn't of made the statement unless I had stats to base it on.

Quote:
From my point of view, I don't care if "Bill and the boys" are worried or not. I care more about the users that visit my sites.


Exactly! Since around 80% of the users that visit my site are IE, sorry FF. It doesn't mean I ignore FF however....

Quote:
What I've learned so far is to look in to Firefox first then IE.


I'm just the opposite as the reasons stated above.
Dispelling the Mystical belief of Web Standards and tableless CSS.
Nobody gets excited about the tools used to build a house, people get excited about how the house looks and performs

7
skenow
Re: XHTML & CSS [designing without tables]
  • 2006/1/15 3:07

  • skenow

  • Home away from home

  • Posts: 993

  • Since: 2004/11/17


(second attempt at posting this - I took too long the first time...)

Basically, I think the real challenge is getting programmers out of the design, which is why XOOPS uses templates, themes, and smarty. And, I think the designers need some guidelines for proper theme development.

Here's some things I have discovered -
1. Elements, Classes and IDs are not always used correctly in XOOPS (Core and Modules). You can often find the same ID tag on more than one element in a page, which is not valid - this should be a class, instead.
2. Module styles have set attributes for html elements that affect the entire site, not just the module's appearance. If you are going to style an element in your module, at least give it a class or ID so you don't break someone else's theme.
3. Inline styles make it necessary to edit the templates to get control of the style - not a good thing.
4. New selectors that need to be added to your theme's stylesheet so the module/block displays correctly are also not a good thing.
5. Having stylesheets all over the site is also not a good thing (how many places do I have to go to change the appearance of my site and the modules I have selected?)
6. Lots of nested elements makes it difficult to track down just what is affecting an element's appearance. Using WebDeveloper in Firefox (Outline Selected Element) sometimes doesn't get to the element before it goes out of the window....
7. Different browsers display styles differently. Trying to create a stylesheet that works in all browsers can be maddening. A method for having multiple stylesheets to handle browser differences would be good. Here's some example code:
if (stristr($_SERVER["HTTP_USER_AGENT"], "Opera"))
          print 
"stylesheet" href="".$sheet."opera.css" type="text/css" media="screen">nt";
     else if (
stristr($_SERVER["HTTP_USER_AGENT"], "Netscape"))
          print 
"stylesheet" href="".$sheet."netscape.css" type="text/css" media="screen">nt";
     else if (
stristr($_SERVER["HTTP_USER_AGENT"], "Gecko"))
          print 
"stylesheet" href="".$sheet."mozilla.css" type="text/css" media="screen">nt";
     else if (
stristr($_SERVER["HTTP_USER_AGENT"], "MSIE"))
          print 
"stylesheet" href="".$sheet."msie.css" type="text/css" media="screen">nt";
     }


With, or without tables, all of these things need to be addressed in a XOOPS module/theme design document.


8
russtik
Re: XHTML & CSS [designing without tables]
  • 2006/1/19 15:00

  • russtik

  • Just popping in

  • Posts: 70

  • Since: 2004/8/13


Quote:

Goober's signature:
Dispelling the Mystical belief of Web Standards and tableless CSS.
Nobody gets excited about the tools used to build a house, people get excited about how the house looks and performs


Aren't you missing the point?

It doesn't matter how good the house looks if it's built on s**t foundations. Eventually it will fall down.

The visually impaired man doesn't care how good the house looks, he just wants to be able to get around with ease.

This is not to say that visual styling and layout are not important. But to ignore how pages are built or attempt to devalue well established "best working practices" is just... foolish IMHO.

9
Guest
Re: XHTML & CSS [designing without tables]
  • 2006/4/15 7:25

  • Guest

  • Just popping in

  • Posts: 2

  • Since: 2006/4/15


I just installed XOOPS to have a look at it. As a webdesigner-hobbyist, I wanted to change the theme, so I started fiddling around with the default one.

I was surprised seeing such a bad code for HTML and CSS. The pages really could (and should!) do without tables and the CSS is faulty could be optimized a lot.

Please fix that. As long as you don't, XOOPS sucks.

10
Guest
Re: XHTML & CSS [designing without tables]
  • 2006/4/15 7:27

  • Guest

  • Just popping in

  • Posts: 2

  • Since: 2006/4/15


Ah yes, the popups with the scrolling information for the modules is annoying too. It's lagging in Firefox.

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