71
phppp
Re: What a ranker!
  • 2010/5/25 2:16

  • phppp

  • XOOPS Contributor

  • Posts: 2857

  • Since: 2004/1/25


Quote:

trabis wrote:

I will ask you one last time to give me(and the community) a release date, please.


I really can not specify a detailed release date.
My plan was to finish one more iteration on high level API refactor and started to invite a few designers and developers to work on basic components during the past weekend. I believe you read my posts in core dev mailing list about front-end frameworks and developers.

But, accidently, I had to stop X3 and pick up 2.4.5 release. Optimistically I would expect one more week on 2.4.5, means that I have to put X3 aside for two weeks.

I had let a developer to lead XOOPS 2.4 with your help, but as we have discussed many times in mailing list, we have problems in the branch.
Again, I really hope we can finish the 2.4 series, either led by you or by me, as soon as possible. Then we can focus on X3 again.

[Added]
Once 2.4.5 Final is released, I will work with X3 internal preview group to evaluate potential work for X3 to be ready for public release, then I give the X3 ETA with the preview group help. Hopefully two weeks after the 2.4.5 Final release.
Is this OK?
If not, let's talk about an practical solution.

72
noo-b
Re: What a ranker!
  • 2010/5/25 4:25

  • noo-b

  • Just can't stay away

  • Posts: 456

  • Since: 2007/10/23


thank you phpp...we will wait :-0
I Love Xoops

73
nmshah
Re: What a ranker!
  • 2010/5/25 9:35

  • nmshah

  • Just can't stay away

  • Posts: 556

  • Since: 2007/7/2 8


Quote:
I would hope that you would give me some credit that after almost 6 years on the project, I understand at least some of the problems here But sometimes throwing the baby with the bath is not the best solution!


Mamba you have done a lot of great things for xoops, one that stands out is your unending support to xoops. Complete credit to you for that.

Why the previous comment because you have an equal or may be more support for DJ then for xoops. Hence either you have not really understood the concerns of people posting in this topic or you choose to not understand hoping all will become fine.

No one really has a problem with you except for the lack of communication on your part before the change of ranks atleast in this particular topic (which in my opinion was very unprofessional).

All questions have been really aimed at DJ. One question that has not been answered ever and I ask again, why is DJ the only one working on xoops 3.0

74
nmshah
Re: What a ranker!
  • 2010/5/25 9:35

  • nmshah

  • Just can't stay away

  • Posts: 556

  • Since: 2007/7/2 8



Quote:
I understand the frustration of some developers, and as DJ said, I've been been harassing him for the last 6 months for dates. And I want to believe that we're getting close to the end of this journey, when 3.0 Alpha will be released.

But as much as we want it "right now", we cannot forget that we are all volunteers and we're doing the development in our free/spare time.

It saddens me that we so often just "demand" things from those poor souls, regardless of what is happening in their personal lives. Do we know if somebody died in their family? If they lost their job? If a new baby was born? If they got married and got divorced? Or if they got sick?


Brings me to the same question why is DJ the only one working on xoops 3.0

You do not completely understand the frustration because the frustration is not about not getting hands on xoops 3.0, its about not knowing what is xoops 3.0 all about.

I am not a developer but from what I have read in the forums, I feel Developers come forward give valuable suggestions, start working and then back out, why? because either they are informed that there work will not be included in xoops 3.0 (Eg- preloads) or are not given clarity as to whether it will be included.

From the end user perspective I am not sure whether I will like to upgrade to xoops 2.5 or not as its already been made clear that some of the features included in 2.4 series will not be a part of xoops 3.0, I guess the same applies to xoops 2.5 (ie some of the aditions in 2.5 may not be included in xoops 3.0) We have the bad experience with respect to xoops 2.2 and xoops 2.0.18 being different in there structure and all the problems because of that. How do we know the same will not happen with the 2.5 and 3.0 series.

75
nmshah
Re: What a ranker!
  • 2010/5/25 9:38

  • nmshah

  • Just can't stay away

  • Posts: 556

  • Since: 2007/7/2 8


Quote:
How much of your request is a simple "curiosity", and how much is a real desire to jump in and help?

Truth be said its more curiosity, but again the curiosity is there as there is a desire to help. And help in terms of bringing more clarity based on questions asked in a respectful manner.

Note: The questions being asked by me are purely there as I like many others in this topic love xoops. I genuinely feel all of us are looking at how to take xoops forward based on our point of views. Hence the intent is same for all, its just that the means are different. Through these question and responses I am trying to help by may be trying to find the logic behind the point of views, which will enable us to understand each-other better and work truly as a team in some manner or the other.

Regards,
Nitin Shah

76
trabis
Re: What a ranker!
  • 2010/5/25 13:19

  • trabis

  • Core Developer

  • Posts: 2269

  • Since: 2006/9/1 1


Dj, although you are not giving me an "ETA" now, if you and the "X3 internal preview group" give me an "ETA" 2 weeks after 2.4.5 is released, I'll be pleased as well.

Regarding:
Quote:

I had let a developer to lead XOOPS 2.4 with your help,


I was not aware of it. If I was assisting wishcraft I would never have reverted any of his code.

Quote:

Again, I really hope we can finish the 2.4 series, either led by you or by me, as soon as possible. Then we can focus on X3 again.


Agree, but as you said: "we have problems in the branch". Since I feel responsible for the state of the branch, I trust you'll do a better job leading it. I don't mind at all in assisting you, it will be a pleasure.

Thank you.

77
Mamba
Re: What a ranker!
  • 2010/5/25 15:39

  • Mamba

  • Moderator

  • Posts: 11245

  • Since: 2004/4/23


Quote:
Why the previous comment because you have an equal or may be more support for DJ then for xoops. Hence either you have not really understood the concerns of people posting in this topic or you choose to not understand hoping all will become fine.

You have the wrong impression. I believe that good leadership style and teamwork is to praise people in public, and criticize in private. So just because you don't see what I say in private emails, you shouldn't assume things. For me XOOPS is the most important. Period!

If I believe that DJ can provide value to XOOPS, I'll support him, the same way as I support everybody who wants to contribute to XOOPS and make a difference!

And I've been "harassing" him for more details for several months. But I am also aware of his obstacles from personal life that might slow him down.

Again, we're doing this as volunteers, and we need to respect it.

If you ask Nicolas from 2.5.0 or Trabis, I am always trying to be respectful of their personal and work life. I always tell them that their family and work comes first!

If I see that somebody doesn't deliver, that it's all hot air, then it's a different story. But in case of DJ, I saw him always delivering in the past.

Sure, 3.0 is probably the most difficult project for him in his life, and because of that, there is always the chance that he might come and say "You know what, this is not doable, the idea what I had, just won't work". That's why I call it 3.0 at this moment as being in "experimental phase". Once it goes into Alpha, it will mean that is working, and we'll have a chance to see if it fulfills our expectations: if it's fast enough, if the compatibility is there, etc. If the XOOPS developers agree that it does, THEN it will become the official "next generation" XOOPS version.

But in the meantime, to minimize any risks and avoiding putting all eggs in one basket (as we did with XoopSphere), we're pushing forward with 2.4.5 and 2.5.0, so our users are getting new releases than improve their lives TODAY. Think again about the car analogy. It's nice to have experimental cars, but our users have to drive to work today

Quote:
No one really has a problem with you except for the lack of communication on your part before the change of ranks atleast in this particular topic (which in my opinion was very unprofessional).

That was obviously a mistake because I didn't anticipate such an uproar. Therefore it has been corrected and the people in question have got their ranks back.

Quote:
All questions have been really aimed at DJ. One question that has not been answered ever and I ask again, why is DJ the only one working on xoops 3.0


Because he is not ready yet to publish it. That's how many developers work! They work on their "intellectual baby" on their computers, till they are ready to introduce it to the world.

Just look around. How many times do you see developers who come out and say: "I am going to work on XYZ. It's just a concept and here it's my first file, and now I'll be adding every day every file that I am working on". This almost never happens. Most of the time, people work on a concept, test it, improve it, and once they're happy with it, they will release it as Alpha.

Just see following releases:

- RM Common Utilities by Eduardo
- Publisher by Trabis
- Morphogenesis 2.0 by Kris
- the changes to the System module by the French team, that became the basis for XOOPS 2.5.0

Did you hear about them before they were announced as Alpha? Did the authors share their work from the very beginning?

Some of these projects have never been publicly released, like Xoosla by Catzwolf. He shared the code with me in private, but asked me not to release it because he didn't feel yet comfortable with it. It was still an experiment for him. Developers do have high expectations of themselves, and are not willing to show stuff that doesn't live up to their requirements.

That's how some people work! And we need to accept it, unless we want to chase them away.

Just go through all the Innovation Awards and check how many of the projects featured there involved the audience from the very beginning, and how many were announced as Alpha only after the developer felt comfortable with the result?

DJ will release it as Alpha once he feels comfortable with it. Then he will involve the community and decide if this is something that we want to use as our "next generation" XOOPS. But up to now he didn't feel comfortable with publishing it yet.

But I believe that we're getting closer.

Let's be patient a little bit more. Let's not throw a baby with the bath!

Support XOOPS => DONATE
Use 2.5.10 | Docs | Modules | Bugs

78
trabis
Re: What a ranker!
  • 2010/5/25 17:38

  • trabis

  • Core Developer

  • Posts: 2269

  • Since: 2006/9/1 1


I totally agree with DJ working alone but he must understand 2 things:

1- Xoops 3.0 will only be adopted after community review and approval.
2- Xoops 3.0 does not interfere with the current Xoops development.

According to Mamba point 1 is met.

Problem is with point 2, 3.0 is interfering with the current branches development as DJ want us to look into forward compatibility(impossible since core developers don't have access to 3.0 yet)

It is VERY important that we can review and approve 3.0 (even if in alpha state) in order to keep developing 2.5 and eventually 2.6.




79
Marco
Re: What a ranker!
  • 2010/5/25 17:43

  • Marco

  • Home away from home

  • Posts: 1256

  • Since: 2004/3/15


well, that's the same again and again, years after years, and make me laugh
Please remember that catz was leading a release few months before (he made a lot at rewriting some old classes, and at cleaning code), and one day we had no news from him (i was supposed to help him by testing). that's life !
Hopefully some found a solution to continue things, and trabis arrived as core dev. Hopefully catz seems to get better :
what is cool is that he is back again !

if DJ and trabis can work together for finalizing quickly 2.4.5, it will be great. IMHO, trabis can lead alone the core dev on 2.4x.

What is cool is that DJ is about to show the new branch code made by his own, so this new API code should have some integrity. Let's be confident in his work, and wait a little (only few days, no ?? ). Then we'll have a lot to do at testing.
I would suggest some experimented module devs to work closely with DJ on X3 finalization (catz?), because xoops is nothing without a module...The same with theme designers...

marco
Do synergy or die.

80
nmshah
Re: What a ranker!
  • 2010/5/25 18:04

  • nmshah

  • Just can't stay away

  • Posts: 556

  • Since: 2007/7/2 8


Quote:
Because he is not ready yet to publish it. That's how many developers work! They work on their "intellectual baby" on their computers, till they are ready to introduce it to the world.


The only problem is that I have been hearing about XOOPS 3.0 AND THE ALFA RELEASE FOR CLOSE TO ONE AND HALF YEAR. The problem with this is very nicely explained by trabis in his post

Quote:
Problem is with point 2, 3.0 is interfering with the current branches development as DJ want us to look into forward compatibility(impossible since core developers don't have access to 3.0 yet)

It is VERY important that we can review and approve 3.0 (even if in alpha state) in order to keep developing 2.5 and eventually 2.6.


Anyways with DJ saying that an alfa will be available for the developers within two weeks of xoops 2.4.5 release, the entire issue is no longer existent now as long as finally the developers get to see & understand the xoops 3.0 and take xoops forward.

Note: I will like to sincerely apologize to anyone that may have felt that I am attacking them, or who may have found my questions or long posts annoying, but I am trying to help by trying to bring about clarity by asking questions in a respectful manner because that is what my area of work is. I am not a developer, nor a theme designer, and I am here because I use xoops for my website and I love it.

Trying to help in whatever little way I can

LONG LIVE XOOPS

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