71
gecko
Re: The Wave of Change IS Upon Us!
  • 2007/4/20 1:24

  • gecko

  • Not too shy to talk

  • Posts: 152

  • Since: 2004/10/11


Yep lets flip the switch for the members lounge. Make it for logged in users only.

This discussion is no good in front page of xoops.org too negative!

72
Chappy
Re: The Wave of Change IS Upon Us!
  • 2007/4/20 11:12

  • Chappy

  • Friend of XOOPS

  • Posts: 456

  • Since: 2002/12/14


Quote:

web-M wrote:
Well maybe a for users only forum could be a good option for discussions that could scare off new XOOPS users.

BUT.....

Quote:

ANY AND ALL contentious arguments could be immediately moved there then there would be no more... you shut me up.
Let them have their say... Even when they don't know how to be polite but may have a point worth considering.


I think we should not want to let fall the XOOPSetiquettes overthere. It's my opinion that every discussion has to be with respect for eachother. Otherwise we still lose people(menbers) be the rude and painfull atacks of others that want to hurt them.


I certainly am in favor of this change - a separate members only forum. I am notin favor of it being a free-for-all of abuse as noted above. To say that one is free to speak ones mind is not the same as saying that you can be abusive or disrespectful. xoops.org is not a social experiment for civil libertarians. It is a place where we are about the work of creating a leading-edge CMS and the community to to support that CMS. The one cannot exist without the other.

Having been here for a while and seeing these destructive threads, the lists of people who have moved on (and who I fear might move on - jensclas - and others who are exactly what this community needs), there is no evidence that open, unbridled, and offensive speech has produced any good for xoops. To the contrary, it has hurt us - at least as much as the supposed secretiveness and isolation of devlopers.

I am NOT arguing for the suppression of ideas, suggestions, differences in opinion, and improvement; indeed, I have participated in calling for improvement. But hopefully not at the risk of speaking destructively of others. We cannot (nor should we) tolerate abusiveness. Again, we are not solely about a piece of software - we are also about community. The one serves the other.
MMM...It tastes like chicken! ...

73
eric235u
Re: The Wave of Change IS Upon Us!
  • 2007/4/20 13:51

  • eric235u

  • Not too shy to talk

  • Posts: 149

  • Since: 2004/12/19


the title of this thread speaks volumes.

The Wave of Change IS Upon Us!

but if you go to our sourceforge site there's no code. no way to review the change, if there's actually a change. no 'community'. if you go to the sourceforge dev mailing lists they are basically empty. the change is not a tsunami, it is a slow and painful death. by not following the path of other successful free and open source projects we are slowly ruining our community. promises with no code is no change. a lack of transparency does not foster trust.

if an administrative position is created to help oversee structural changes to assist in community development that person must be given project admin status at the sourceforge website. that will ensure a sharing of responsibility. that will allow democratic & merit based decisions to take place. otherwise we are spinning our wheels.

***************************************************

i ask for you all to reconsider your position on a members only forum. there is no advantage to 'hiding' your conversations from public view. granted you may not want the ramblings of a maniac on the front page but there's no reason to hide anything. our example of tolerance and open conversation is what makes us a better community than some others. this model goes hand in hand with free speech and free software.


***************************************************

Producing Open Source Software. How to Run a Successful Free Software Project

74
jfmoore
Re: The Wave of Change IS Upon Us!
  • 2007/5/19 18:18

  • jfmoore

  • Quite a regular

  • Posts: 360

  • Since: 2004/6/6 5


Quote:

JMorris wrote:
Skalpa made it quite clear that the #1 objective of his team was to join the 2 branches of XOOPS and move forward. That is where XOOPS is at right now!


Is this the announcement of this change of direction, or did I miss it elsewhere?

Jere
...

75
jfmoore
Re: The Wave of Change IS Upon Us!
  • 2007/5/20 20:29

  • jfmoore

  • Quite a regular

  • Posts: 360

  • Since: 2004/6/6 5


Quote:

jfmoore wrote:
Quote:

JMorris wrote:
Skalpa made it quite clear that the #1 objective of his team was to join the 2 branches of XOOPS and move forward. That is where XOOPS is at right now!


Is this the announcement of this change of direction, or did I miss it elsewhere?

Jere


Okay, then, unless corrected I will assume that this is the announcement and will go ahead and add my 2 cents worth.

This is HUGE NEWS! Last I heard XOOPS 2.2 users, of which I am one, would have to wait for XOOPS 2.4 to come back into the family. To hear that the merge is now top priority is HUGE!!!

Why then, was this not announced in XOOPS News? I, and I'm sure many others like me, if we don't have time to read anything else, always read XOOPS News hoping to glean any available tidbit about the continuing development, its progress, and any other relative news, so, to have this important announcement made in a forum which is supposed to be about "anything non-xoops related" is really hard to understand. Is it not an "official" change, or what?

If the devs are serious about this, then why isn't it posted as a stiky in the "Development" forum? Why did those hungry for this kind of info have to stumble upon in in a place where it shouldn't be? Is it hard to understand, then, why people perceive that there is a communication problem?

We really, really have to address this communication issue. If we don't, then we'll continue to be climbing a cactus when we could be relaxing on the beach.

Jere
...

76
nachenko
Re: The Wave of Change IS Upon Us!
  • 2007/5/20 21:03

  • nachenko

  • Quite a regular

  • Posts: 356

  • Since: 2005/1/18


Quote:
We really, really have to address this communication issue.


Oh, yes, we have to.

Discuss it further here:

https://xoops.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=58995&forum=11

77
JMorris
Re: The Wave of Change IS Upon Us!
  • 2007/5/21 1:25

  • JMorris

  • XOOPS is my life!

  • Posts: 2722

  • Since: 2004/4/11


Quote:

jfmoore wrote:

Okay, then, unless corrected I will assume that this is the announcement and will go ahead and add my 2 cents worth.


You won't be corrected as it is the truth.

Quote:

jfmoore wrote:

This is HUGE NEWS! Last I heard XOOPS 2.2 users, of which I am one, would have to wait for XOOPS 2.4 to come back into the family. To hear that the merge is now top priority is HUGE!!!


Well, the merge they are talking about IS 2.4. It's just that there have been delays. Mainly, Skalpa was ill.

Quote:

jfmoore wrote:

Why then, was this not announced in XOOPS News? I, and I'm sure many others like me, if we don't have time to read anything else, always read XOOPS News hoping to glean any available tidbit about the continuing development, its progress, and any other relative news, so, to have this important announcement made in a forum which is supposed to be about "anything non-xoops related" is really hard to understand. Is it not an "official" change, or what?

If the devs are serious about this, then why isn't it posted as a stiky in the "Development" forum? Why did those hungry for this kind of info have to stumble upon in in a place where it shouldn't be? Is it hard to understand, then, why people perceive that there is a communication problem?


Well, if this is anyone's "fault" it is mine. Basically, I considered this news hearsay since it was told to me by Skalpa in an IM conversation. The community kept asking for news and none came, so I took it upon myself to get news from Skalpa by contacting him directly.

Should it have been announced as news? I don't think so because there is no code released to back it up right now. The Core Dev Team is getting back to basics. That being code. Their code will be doing the talking for them.

After all, isn't the most important thing we are all here for the code?

Quote:

jfmoore wrote:

We really, really have to address this communication issue. If we don't, then we'll continue to be climbing a cactus when we could be relaxing on the beach.

Jere


Well, I would agree with you here. Communication does need work, but I really don't think this community understands *how* things should be communicated.

You see, this project started out as a fork of another project. In its early days, it was small and the developers could communicate directly with the community. Then, it was a "mini-project" that had a small community of users and developers.

Now, this project is all grown up and is no longer a "mini-project". However, we still have a very small number of developers. 3 Core Developers to be exact. There is absolutely no way that these 3 people can realistically participate in the "community" discussions and still meet the demands of developing XOOPS, while still having lives.

Think about it for a second... Can you discuss things with the lead developer of RedHat Linux? No, you can't. Why? The project is too big for this to be realistic.

Instead, you have a team of experienced support personnel who act as an interface between the developers and the community. These members watch the code, interpret the project progress, and report the progress back to the community. Bug reports are submitted through the appropriate channels, and when something comes up in the community that is not appropriately reported through the right channels, senior members of the community make sure things are reported correctly.

What people here don't seem to understand is XOOPS is not the project it was 2, 3, 4 years ago. It is waaaaaay bigger.

Yes, it would have been nice for the Core Developers to tell people this, but considering they have been busy with completely rebuilding XOOPS from the ground up, well, I personally can't be mad at them for not participating in the mess that this site has become lately.

Yes, a lot of changes are needed. This includes a change in attitude and expectations for us all. We have to stop thinking and acting like a small project and start thinking on a larger scale.

A lot is being done to facilitate this, and I wish this could all be done out in the open, but unfortunately, the current environment of this site doesn't allow this. However, this will change VERY soon.

This site, as it exists now, will soon be archived and replaced by 3 new sites that are much more professional, much more appropriate for a large Open Source Project, and, with regards to the community aspects of the project, much better suited to collaboration.

I'm not talking false promises here. If you take a minute to step back from the "drama" and look at what is going on, you will see the progress being made all around.

* A call to action for the new repository
* The XOOPS Wiki was launched
* XOOPS Docs was launched
* The new servers were publicly tested
* The cross reference of the 2.0.16 core was published
* The "Starting a New XOOPS Site" Case Study was published

There is even more, but I can't remember it all. The point is, the community IS being heard and work is being done. In fact, the rate of progress has actually increased.

Now, on a different note, there has been a LOT of negativity around here lately. I have to be honest and admit that I've had more than my part in this. For that, I am sincerely sorry. I have no excuse. I lost my temper with those who I felt were attacking something I'm a firm believer in. I should have taken a step back and "heard" what was being said, instead of "how" it was being said. I don't agree with many of the points made, but I should have disagreed in a more appropriate way.

I cannot go back and change what I have done, but I can change how I behave. I hope that will be enough to be helpful here.

This is an overly long-winded post and I apologize for that, but the point I'm trying to get across here is this...

Hang in there just a little longer and much of what you have been asking for will become a reality.
Insanity can be defined as "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

Stupidity is not a crime. Therefore, you are free to go.

78
wtravel
Re: The Wave of Change IS Upon Us!

We can make a news post of this summary you stated because for many people it IS news. If I would not have taken the effort to keep track of this topic I would have no idea that the core developers are working on a merge. I assume not everybody is going to read through all the topics to find out what is going on .

79
MadFish
Re: The Wave of Change IS Upon Us!
  • 2007/5/21 5:48

  • MadFish

  • Friend of XOOPS

  • Posts: 1056

  • Since: 2003/9/27


Good idea - and it would be nice if it could be distributed via email to registered members as an 'eNewsletter' or something once a month.

Then nobody can complain they weren't informed :)

80
davidl2
Re: The Wave of Change IS Upon Us!
  • 2007/5/21 12:57

  • davidl2

  • XOOPS is my life!

  • Posts: 4843

  • Since: 2003/5/26


James - you're not the only person who's been not been as thoughtful as posting as they should have been... I've been very unpleasant recently. And for this, I am very annoyed with myself.

I know sometimes people can get emotional here - and few more than myself - but I should learn to bite my tounge (and fingers!) before posting sometimes.

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