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wfsection wrote:
This thread does not in one bit surprise me at all.
For the last few months I have sat and watched this unfold into the fiasco that it now is. There are two sets of people here at Xoops, the in crowd and the ones on the outside looking in.
Perhaps, because I am one of the "in-crowd" you refer to, I don't see the same issues you do. I know that each and every person working on the core team, does so out of love and respect for this community, not for direct personal gain.
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The current core members to not care for anyone else but themselves when it comes to the development of Xoops. Sure, you might actually start listening to people but normally it takes a sledgehammer to hit before the information sinks in.
I personally take offense at this statement. Again, every one of the current core team members cares very strongly for the future of xoops. But this is not an us vs. them argument. Every single person on these forums is a member of the XOOPS community. In nearly every open-source project, the fastest way to implement change jump in with both feet. Submit a patch, help test outstanding patches that are being considered for the core, help support, document, etc. Most of your complaints can be solved by publishing a development roadmap. I am assured by other team members that this is being done as we speak.
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The Japanese community have been trying to get your attention over matters that they regarded high on the list for the development of XOOPS only to be ignored until someone finally took noticed and realised that there was a massive hole in Xoops, and even then you lot reluctantly took notice. This is not the first time that this has happened and you only need to venture through these and other forums for that evidence.
I would like for you to produce examples of attempted communication of security issues that were ignored. When pressed to submit proper security advisories these types of responses were given:
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Herko.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
I'm too busy to teach "What is the security" to short skilled programmer.
My Name is GIJOE.
Do you still insist this site is secure?
If Protector is installed correctly, I can't crack regardless of the version of XOOPS.
I thought then, and I still think now that some users were more interested in drawing attention to themselves then fixing the problem. Instead of publicly attacking another member of the community, the proper response would be to:
Submit a patch
Post a bug report
Submit a security advisory
Were any of those steps taken? No. Why not?
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So why has XOOPS lost so many of the top developers over the last year? Why has so much talent gone from the development of XOOPS and why is nothing being done to prevent this from happening? I could give you a list as long as my arm of the people who have left or are extremely unhappy with the current XOOPS team and the way that XOOPS is being developed. Why do I know? Because I have personally spoken to many XOOPS module developers regarding this matter and message is very clear.
I can't speak for "many of the top developers", but I imagine they left because of arguments like this one. It does nothing to improve XOOPS or the XOOPS community.
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I think it is about time that people on these forums who rather adhere to arse licking and just agreeing for the sake of agreeing took a few steps back and realised that even though the number of XOOPS users grow, the amount of modules, themes and work to the core is actually going down and there are not the number of raw new talent coming in to take over the place of lost talent.
You do have a point here. We as a community need to do a better job at getting new development talent interested in working on XOOPS. A question that should be asked of all those leaving is why?
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The sad fact is this, the core doesn't bring people to Xoops, its the modules and themes that people use in a daily context that does. I have said this before and I will say this again, the current thinking of the core is to throw out as much as possible to the outside developers (Hacks, modules, themes etc) and hope that these people carry on the development of what I regard as key core development area's and not down to others. You just have to look at the issues going on now to understand how fucking stupid this current thinking is by the core. The more key development that is sustained by the core thus means that important areas stay up to date, secure and hopefully written to the XOOPS OO standard. This offloading of work WILL backfire in the long run.
No, I disagree with your assessment. The idea was to have a group of people that concentrate on adding features to the core (that are utilized by modules / themes) and other groups of people that concentrated on utilizing these new features in their applications. Again I don't see this as an us vs. them situation. We are all working to improve XOOPS.
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Apparently the next version of XOOPS totally disregards module developers by the fact that all modules (from what I have read) will be rendered useless due to the new way that modules are dealt with. So what does this mean to everyone? Well with the lack of current module developers around today, who is going to take over the role of converting all the modules that wont work, don't have developers currently working on them and those modules that where originally core modules? Will the core team do this, oh I forgot, they couldn’t be pissed assed actually doing work on them any more. Hell, no wonder Mambo is running riot at the moment with the awards that it’s winning just now.
What are you basing this on? Because we have decided that instead of continuing to tack features on that a fresh look was needed? You make it sound like we don't want to do any work, so here you go developers, you can do it for us. That viewpoint can't be further from the truth. How many modules has Mithrandir released in the last 12 months? I've personally released 3 major versions of xhelp with another one on the way. We all realize that modules and themes will be what draws users in, but to draw module developers and theme developers in, additional features need to be added to the core. Again, this isn't us vs. them.
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Someone mentioned a fork in this thread; you really don't have a clue how close that actually happened. I can tell you now that many XOOPS module developers (Yes ones that are here right now) actually started putting this plan into action and where going to fork Xoops. Yes, we have a name for this new CMS, we have the development structure in place and we have many Module, theme developers to do the job and are unwilling to put any more time into XOOPS development.
As I said in an earlier response, forks happen daily in the Open Source world. And they usually happen when two people have legitimate differences of opinion. Why do you think there are 15-20 different MAJOR cms's for the PHP programming language alone? Maybe I'm just oblivious, but I am actually suprised at the anger (or maybe frustration) I see in your post. Here I've been happily working away at XOOPS and all your frustration was completely missed.
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We then decided to wait until the new version came out before we would decide which way to continue. You have to ask yourself this question, WHY??? Ask yourself that question please. Why we developers have decided to do this? Because, we are extremely unhappy with what is going on in Xoops, both with (some) members of the current core and the direction of XOOPS it self.
No 1 group of people dictate XOOPS "policy." I get personally very upset when I read posts like this, because it implies that we on the core team are sitting there with a big rubber stamp that says "No" on it. You know how I got to be on the core team. Because I was willing to help when I saw a need, not just complain about it. It wasn't because I was a member of the "in-crowd." I didn't even know PHP before I started working with XOOPS, but I liked what I saw and learned PHP through working with the XOOPS application.
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I know I am going to get 'shit' for this post but personally I couldn't care less. I am telling you how it is, the other developers feel but are unwilling to say (except for Phppp) anything in fear of being labelled a traitor to the XOOPS cause.
You are correct, you will get 'shit'. But not because you are a traitor. I'm sorry that you have such animosity toward the "Core Team", but it is not mutual. In fact, XOOPS is large enough that if it doesn't cultivate a more productive community it will wither. Every one of the core team members realizes this and wants to cultivate this community.
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I left XOOPS because of the crass and bullshit covering the already showing cracks in the XOOPS foundation. Being told how wonderful everything was and how fantastic things are and the self style jubilations and pats on our own back in a job well done, when the people who matter where saying, look something is wrong here and were just ignored.
I'm sorry, I just don't see it. There have been several times in the last year that I've been very close to walking away. But not because of problems with the core team members, rather getting tired of dealing with rants just like this. All sizzle, no steak.
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When I was with WF-Projects, we asked if one line could be inserted into a java script function last year. To us it seemed more sensible to add one line to a core function rather than have to write more code that wasn't needed. We where told, 'No'.
These are both unfortunate, but I was not involved in either one of these decisions, nor their discussions either for or against.
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Well as someone once said, so long and thanks for all the fish!
I'm sorry you feel this way, you will be missed.
