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XOOPS: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usage of official domains

Posted by: XoopsCouncilOn 2007/10/9 7:50:01 14321 reads

Due to the unexpected emergency happened in the past two days and slow response from XOOPS Foundation [refer to "emergency in the past two days"], the XOOPS Project Council realizes that it is time to request the XOOPS Foundation to clarify its role and position in the XOOPS Project.

Hereby the XOOPS Project Council makes the official request to the Foundation :

1. Hand over XOOPS Project servers to the XOOPS Project Council then managed by the XOOPS Technical Group
2. Give full access to usage of domains that claimed by the Foundation to be used for the XOOPS Project, including the DNS of xoops.org
3. A clear statement of the Foundation's organization and its membership
4. Clarification its role and position in the Open Source Project of XOOPS
5. Publish a financial report with balance sheet, a profit/loss statement and cash flow statement.

The XOOPS Project Council looks forward to cooperating with the Foundation in any positive way to make the XOOPS Project moving forward.

However the XOOPS Project Council has to publish the official request after six days no response from the Foundation via a personal email sent by phppp ( who was Council Chairman of September and responsible making monthly report for September at the time) on October 3rd to herko (who is the current Foundation Chairman).

In the email phppp asked questions concerning XOOPS Foundation as well the domain of http://www.xoops.com which is held by herko as personal domain instead of as a Project domain nor a foundation domain. Herko promised to reply soon but the Council has not got any response yet by now.

The domain http://www.xoops.org owner has also been contacted, no response yet.

The XOOPS Project Council
October 9th, 2007

The comments are owned by the author. We aren't responsible for their content.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

MadFish Published 10/09/2007 8:34 Updated 10/09/2007 8:35 Friend of XOOPS Joined 09/27/2003 Comments 1056

In my opinion, it would be inappropriate for the Foundation to 'hand over' the domains and DNS until such time as the current management can produce a set of regulations describing the structure and governance of the project.

I don't think physical control over project resources should constitute 'ownership'. I think the people that administer these resources - for the benefit of the project - should be accountable.

In my opinion the present management already has excessive authority, an inadequate level of accountability, and has shown an unacceptable disregard for transparency.

Nothing personal, I just want to see this project succeed and the current situation is dismal.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

snow77 Published 10/09/2007 10:02 Just can't stay away Joined 07/23/2003 Comments 864

Cool! So what'll be the next surprise? Is this what the council thinks? What Phppp wants? or what the chinese company after XOOPS is looking after? Who wants to play chess? Has anyone seen Lost?...looks so much like xoops.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

metropolis Published 10/09/2007 10:21 Not too shy to talk Joined 07/15/2004 Comments 159

While I don't even understand what the responsibilities of the XOOPS Project Council and the XOOPS Foundation are and why there have to be two different parties at all, I am really sad what has become of Xoops.

Will there be some real progress in the software within the next 200 years or is this the only kind of news we have to read for the next decades?

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

hervet Published 10/09/2007 10:38 Friend of XOOPS Joined 11/04/2003 Comments 2267

format c: /s .....

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

damaster Published 10/09/2007 10:56 Updated 10/09/2007 11:04 Just can't stay away Joined 05/11/2003 Comments 556

The Foundation has been useless to project development or anything else than Herko's profit
Who put himself and the Netherlands Foundation in such illegal situation that we all know by now.

The Project Council and the community should require it to be dissolved and funds transfered and managed by a trusted international open source foundation alike Free Software Foundation or Open source Initiative. That should provide some credibility and visibility to this project!

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

xgarb Published 10/09/2007 11:10 Not too shy to talk Joined 03/30/2003 Comments 154

This is getting silly! And it's raining in the UK.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

hervet Published 10/09/2007 11:12 Friend of XOOPS Joined 11/04/2003 Comments 2267

Quote:

And it's raining in the UK.

You are too young to see something else there
:--)))))))))))

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

kamax Published 10/09/2007 11:31 Friend of XOOPS Joined 01/15/2005 Comments 44

What the hell, the XOOPS body revolt against his own helpless Head? What's next..?

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

seth_sd Published 10/09/2007 11:45 Updated 10/09/2007 11:46 Friend of XOOPS Joined 11/09/2004 Comments 158

@Damaster - This is a serious question, Why was it illegal?

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

Dave_L Published 10/09/2007 12:03 Updated 10/09/2007 12:04 XOOPS is my life! Joined 11/07/2003 Comments 2277

:sigh:

The foundation pays for and handles the lease on the servers, and looks after the XOOPS trademark, etc.

The "project", which is basically core development, doesn't need the servers, and doesn't need to concern itself with the xoops.org domain. The project can continue to function nicely using the sourceforge.net project site.

The benefit of the servers is only for the community. As long as the foundation provides sufficient access for the community site admins and technical personnel, there is no problem.

I wish I didn't have to argue these points in public, because it's bad for the project. But my private discussions on the matter fall on deaf ears.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

Catzwolf Published 10/09/2007 12:10 Home away from home Joined 09/30/2007 Comments 1392

I think it would be better to take these toys and give them to adults who know what to do with them.

For the sake of this project, community and for all the people who depend and use Xoops, either grow up or get out, and let someone else do the job instead.

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

seth_sd Published 10/09/2007 12:11 Friend of XOOPS Joined 11/09/2004 Comments 158

Quote:

:sigh:

The foundation pays for and handles the lease on the servers, and looks after the XOOPS trademark, etc.

The "project", which is basically core development, doesn't need the servers, and doesn't need to concern itself with the xoops.org domain. The project can continue to function nicely using the sourceforge.net project site.

The benefit of the servers is only for the community. As long as the foundation provides sufficient access for the community site admins and technical personnel, there is no problem.

I wish I didn't have to argue these points in public, because it's bad for the project. But my private discussions on the matter fall on deaf ears.

That makes complete sense.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

tom Published 10/09/2007 12:28 Friend of XOOPS Joined 09/21/2002 Comments 1359

Ok here's an idea.

The foundation donates any remaining funds to a charity, closes the servers, doesn't renew any domain names, and then folds itself, thus this would also close XOOPS too.

I'd rather see this than the dictator that DJ is, gain control over everything.

I'd like to read all the rest of the crap on here today, but I gotta go out, so my post here will do for now.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

Published 10/09/2007 12:30 Updated 10/09/2007 12:32 Joined Comments

Quote:

The "project", which is basically core development, doesn't need the servers, and doesn't need to concern itself with the xoops.org domain.

Quote:

That makes complete sense.

And to me, so why the power-struggle? Megalomania?

There's two sides to every story........ This is a stinking pile of poo.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

tom Published 10/09/2007 12:30 Friend of XOOPS Joined 09/21/2002 Comments 1359

Quote:

:sigh:

The foundation pays for and handles the lease on the servers, and looks after the XOOPS trademark, etc.

The "project", which is basically core development, doesn't need the servers, and doesn't need to concern itself with the xoops.org domain. The project can continue to function nicely using the sourceforge.net project site.

The benefit of the servers is only for the community. As long as the foundation provides sufficient access for the community site admins and technical personnel, there is no problem.

I wish I didn't have to argue these points in public, because it's bad for the project. But my private discussions on the matter fall on deaf ears.

Of course this makes sense.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

tom Published 10/09/2007 12:31 Friend of XOOPS Joined 09/21/2002 Comments 1359

Quote:

And to me, so why the power-struggle? Megalomania?

Dictators like all the power, that's why.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

Catzwolf Published 10/09/2007 12:33 Home away from home Joined 09/30/2007 Comments 1392

Ok, I have given this some more thought. It seems that maybe DJ is caught between the devil and the deep blue see here.

Whose job is it to oversee the XOOPS domains? Is it the council or the foundation? Whose job is it to maintain and keep them up to date?

The point I am trying to make is this, if the foundation is supposed to be responsible for the domains, why does it take them so long to fix it, why haven't they moved the sites over to the new servers?

If both the council and the foundation have their own set of keys for the domains, this would mean that site issues could be dealt with either the council or the foundation if one or the other could not be contacted.

Or is this really just nothing more than a power struggle between the both parties? If that is the case then this is not acceptable to XOOPS and the community as a whole.

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

JMorris_ Published 10/09/2007 12:48 Just popping in Joined 10/09/2007 Comments 10

The servers were configured in such a way that root level access is not necessary in order to move and administer any of the websites.

This was done for security reasons because the XOOPS Foundation also supports some "non-official" initiatives.

All hosting accounts are managed through their own cPanel interface. suEXEC is enabled to facilitate tighter folder permissions and ALL necessary applications are installed and configured so that the needs of project sites are met.

These dedicated servers were specifically built just for XOOPS powered sites, for the XOOPS Project and related community initiatives.

The XOOPS Council does not need the "keys" to these resources. These resources are paid for and managed by the XOOPS Foundations.

Also, Surpass hosting is providing Full Dedicated Support for these servers, so even if something breaks, the Council doesn't need root access.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

Dave_L Published 10/09/2007 12:54 XOOPS is my life! Joined 11/07/2003 Comments 2277

Quote:

The point I am trying to make is this, if the foundation is supposed to be responsible for the domains, why does it take them so long to fix it, why haven't they moved the sites over to the new servers?

As the former technical group leader, I was tasked with overseeing the migration initially started by JMorris.

One problem is that xoops.org is running an old version of XOOPS, which reportedly has hacks that would make upgrading difficult. If we moved the site as-is, we would retain bugs and probably security holes. That's the technical issue.

While we were planning a solution to this, arose the political issue brought up in another recent news post, i.e. the council vs. foundation territorial dispute, which in my opinion is misdirected and unproductive.

My disgust with this was partly why I resigned from the council and technical group.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

Catzwolf Published 10/09/2007 12:55 Home away from home Joined 09/30/2007 Comments 1392

What exactly is those "non-official" initiatives? And why should XOOPS be supporting these and who do the infact belong to?

So basically, what you are saying is that it is the foundation that really own XOOPS and from what I can see then is this, XOOPS has'nt really changed hands at all, Herko (and from what I can see 'Skalpa') and the other foundation members still run Xoops. So basically The foundation played the community like fools?

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

JMorris_ Published 10/09/2007 12:59 Just popping in Joined 10/09/2007 Comments 10

hhttp://xoopsfoundation.org/

There's your answers. If it's not there, then somebody from the Foundation will have to elaborate more.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

Catzwolf Published 10/09/2007 13:04 Home away from home Joined 09/30/2007 Comments 1392

I honestly don't see the problem here? If these sites need a major revamp (Which we have all been asking for), this could be done on a sub domain and once finished ported over to the main site.

Sometimes progress comes with a few set backs which make it all the more pleasant when the end result can be seen.

People have been offering their help and it seems as someone is made a member of the team they quit? This shows that there is a fundamental flaw somewhere in this machine. I myself have offered 3 times to help and go no reply.

This project cannot keep going through these issues each and survive with some creditability intact. Some person/persons should be made accountable for this mess and real changes should be made to ensure that it never happens again.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

Dave_L Published 10/09/2007 13:20 XOOPS is my life! Joined 11/07/2003 Comments 2277

The fundamental problem is that the people in the position to get the work done won't put aside their personal agendas and cooperate to do what's best for the project.

Swapping out the people for another group of people is probably not the solution.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

Catzwolf Published 10/09/2007 13:25 Updated 10/09/2007 13:26 Home away from home Joined 09/30/2007 Comments 1392

I agree with you that swapping around may not be the answer, there is certainly no way that the project can function and grow with the attitudes of both the foundation and the council. But in the long run it maybe better for the project survival to wipe the slate clean and start again, if these people do not get their acts together and work for XOOPS and not themselves.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

siweb Published 10/09/2007 15:49 Not too shy to talk Joined 05/02/2004 Comments 150

Quote:

tom wrote:
The foundation donates any remaining funds to a charity, closes the servers, doesn't renew any domain names, and then folds itself, thus this would also close XOOPS too.

You're not the first one with this idea.

Herko Coomans wrote this on 2007/8/9:
Quote:

This sunday, there is a board meeting of teh foundation, and I'm handing over everything to someone else and suggest the foundation be disbanded, the funds all transferred to sf.net, the server leases stopped and the trademark rights handed over to joomla's foundation.

This is my very very last post here. Good bye.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

Marco Published 10/09/2007 20:40 Updated 10/09/2007 20:43 Home away from home Joined 03/15/2004 Comments 1256

again, and i've asked for this many times in the past 2 months, would you mind dissolving the foundation, throwing away money and private clubs, and getting back to the essence, aka open source, collaborative work and code.
it's time for those who block the project for years to quit.
it's time to grow up. it looks more from the outside like kids whims than adult able to elaborate a strong product and community strategy.
xoops code is more than 2 years old, there's only 2 solutions to build a new one
- find a extraterrestrial guy
- find a team of experts and professionals
please choose the right one. XOOPS suffers from amateurism. Ono, please come back.it's time to "format C:\", indeed.
marco

XOOPS Foundation preparing a statement

Foundation Published 10/09/2007 21:22 Updated 10/09/2007 21:31 Just popping in Joined 10/01/2007 Comments 32

The XOOPS Foundation is currently preparing a statement that will address these issues. This statement will be published within the next 24 hours.

Thank you for your patience.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

banned Published 10/10/2007 1:18 Not too shy to talk Joined 05/16/2004 Comments 159

Format c:

banned,

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

Shine Published 10/10/2007 11:44 Just can't stay away Joined 07/22/2002 Comments 822

Reading more.....

Now the foundation has replied.
Is this a communication struggle between de council and the foundation which is taking place on the XOOPS community website?

I am totally lost and confused.
New accounts have been made on the XOOPS website xoops.org.
XoopsFoundation
and
XoopsCouncil.

Actual foundationmembers are:
- Herko Coomans, Chair, treasurer a.i.
- Marc-André Lanciault, secretary
- Davidl2 (alias used per request), coordinator
- Skalpa Keo (alias used per request), member

Actual councilmemebers are:
- phppp, active in September
- christian, active in September
- KC0MAZ, active as a non-voting member

Totally unclear is who is talking from out the council and from out the foundation. I see names passing by who aren't member of both but speaking out loudly. What kind of powerstruggle is going on? And between which persons? Why?
What is and when started the source of this all?

The XOOPS Foundation mission is to support the XOOPS Project and the XOOPS Community in any way it can.

It intends to acheive this mission by :

- Facilitate the discussions between the Project and the Community
- Facilitate and maintain a network of websites dedicated to the promotion and support of XOOPS
- Facilitate the distribution and availability of core codes
- Managing and protecting XOOPS intellectual property
- Organise events, processes and other actions to raise funds
- Accepting and managing donations
- Creating partnerships with other organisations
- Acquiring and managing infrastructure in support of the XOOPS project
- Writing and publishing press releases and promotional materials

If I read the above foundation mission they haven't succeeded at all.
I get the impression none whatsoever communication between de council (project) and the foundation and vice versa has been taken place.
In what way did the foundation know and agreed about the future developments plans coming from DJ (phpp)? Or was this a descision made by himself without consulting the foundation?

What kind of power does the foundation have?
What kind of power does the council have?
Do they need eachother?
What effects do both seperate have on the CMS and the community XOOPS ?

Can somebody clear these things out to the community?
Gjeez, this is getting a copycat of mambo/joomla.

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

marcan Published 10/10/2007 12:30 Just can't stay away Joined 10/08/2003 Comments 824

Hi Shine,

The accounts "Foundation" and "XoopsCouncil" have been created so it is clear that it is not a personal individual that makes a post but the whole Foundation or Council. We work as a group, not as an individual.

This very comment is posted with my user account so it reflects my personal point of view, and not The Foundation's.

Quote:

If I read the above foundation mission they haven't succeeded at all.

That is your opinion and I respect that. I can understand why you and other people might have that impression. But I don't agree. I believe the Foundation has made great progress in the last weeks and it will keep getting better as well.

Quote:

In what way did the foundation know and agreed about the future developments plans coming from DJ (phpp)?

The Foundation has no say in this. It is not its role to lead the Project nor the Community. It exists in the sole purpose of supporting both in any direction they wish to go.

Quote:

What kind of power does the foundation have?
What kind of power does the council have?
Do they need eachother?
What effects do both seperate have on the CMS and the community XOOPS ?

An official statement of the Foundation will be published today which will answer these questions.

Quote:

Gjeez, this is getting a copycat of mambo/joomla.

I do agree that all this dirty laundry should never been done in public. But it has, so we need to live with it and focus our energy at making it right.

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

Xman04 Published 10/10/2007 13:26 Updated 10/10/2007 13:30 Not too shy to talk Joined 07/12/2004 Comments 180

In my opinion, the problem here is that the organizational structure seems unnecessarily complex, and the connections between groups and participating individuals very vague.

I think there should be one group of community elected individuals that sets the mission, goals, rules, and time lines for the various areas of the project.

That same group should select project managers to manage and implement the actual project work for each area of the project, including the recruitment of developers/designers/tech writers, etc., the assignment of tasks to those recruited individuals, and the establishment of date definable goals for each task. The project manager for each section would be required to submit a plan of action, which is posted on this web site for all to see.

I would also suggest setting up a project management tracking system on this web site, where the status of each task (for each project area) is updated on a weekly basis. Each project manager would be responsible for updating the status for each task within his/her unit. This way, the project participants and community can see the progress and status of each area of the project.

I know that that the above is over simplified, but it may work better than the current structure. If some of this is already being done in this manner, then I apologize for being redundant. I just think that there needs to be much more of a project management approach to this project. This is just my opinion though, based only on what I'm seeing posted in the forums.

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

jfmoore Published 10/10/2007 15:27 Quite a regular Joined 06/06/2004 Comments 360

Quote:

Poster: Xman04 Posted: 2007/10/10 9:26:57

In my opinion, the problem here is that the organizational structure seems unnecessarily complex, and the connections between groups and participating individuals very vague.

I think there should be one group of community elected individuals that sets the mission, goals, rules, and time lines for the various areas of the project.

That same group should select project managers to manage and implement the actual project work for each area of the project, including the recruitment of developers/designers/tech writers, etc., the assignment of tasks to those recruited individuals, and the establishment of date definable goals for each task. The project manager for each section would be required to submit a plan of action, which is posted on this web site for all to see.

I would also suggest setting up a project management tracking system on this web site, where the status of each task (for each project area) is updated on a weekly basis. Each project manager would be responsible for updating the status for each task within his/her unit. This way, the project participants and community can see the progress and status of each area of the project.

I know that that the above is over simplified, but it may work better than the current structure. If some of this is already being done in this manner, then I apologize for being redundant. I just think that there needs to be much more of a project management approach to this project. This is just my opinion though, based only on what I'm seeing posted in the forums.

Sounds good to me. I would add that both the Foundation and Council are too small. Too easy for one person or faction to dominate. Too small frequently = 1. But new members should be elected by the community, not appointed by vested interests already there. People should be nominated or volunteer, and then post their qualifications and goals for XOOPS so that the community can better choose whom to appoint.

And one more point: When the community appoints/elects a person to the position, that person should demonstrate a willingness to stay and fight (in a diplomatic and non-combative way) for the principles which they were appointed to uphold and not just quit when the going gets rough.

I'm not criticizing anyone who has resigned from a position to make a point. Sometimes that's the only way that you can be heard. What I'm saying, as Xman04 is saying, is that we need to change the environment such that resignation is not the only way to be heard and then appoint or elect some good people who have no personal agendas to push and will issue unbiased reports to the community as to the goings on.

Just my 2 cents worth, and probably too expensive at that.

Jere

user

Re: Official request XOOPS Project's servers and usa...

Speed Published 10/10/2007 17:19 Quite a regular Joined 05/18/2004 Comments 310

I'm just a simple user here caught in the cross-fire between what feels like two armed militant groups. Both have "freedom" as their goal but their methods and implementations obviously differ. The community is war weary.

Might I suggest that the developers -- the ones with the code and skills -- just start a new site and start developing again rather than fight over trademarks, websites and titles? The rest of us will find you soon enough and look forward to new code. The present sniper battle just leaves us users as the only casualties and we've lost too many good people to stray bullets, ambushes and pointless assaults.

Ok, enough of that metaphor. You get the idea.

Can we just call each dev's vision a XOOPS fork and be done with it. PHP can move forward with his vision. Skalpa can return if he likes with his vision. Ono can create a version. There's lots of room for other camps to create visions IMNSHO. I really don't care. It would be great if the various "teams" (and I use that term loosely based on the last year's worth of me me me me drama) would ensure interoperability and compatibility. But even if that isn't possible I think everyone would be much happier to just move on and rebuild rather than drag the baggage through another year or two or three of frustration.

Enough is enough. Period. Done. Stop the infighting and move on. Please.

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