xoops forums

phppp

XOOPS Contributor
Posted on: 2010/8/5 6:38
phppp
phppp (Show more)
XOOPS Contributor
Posts: 2857
Since: 2004/1/25
#21

Re: "Universal" module framework...

Quote:

Catzwolf wrote:

This has to stop, Xoops has to sit down collectively and work together in one goal with one vision and not as a bunch of individuals like we are now.

And as to regards to your comment about DJ having to come and fix other peoples work. If you had proper testing procedures and a quality of service for this area, these issues would have been found and corrected long before they where committed to the main branch.


Catz, you said it. I have to admit that it was my fault with 2.4 branch organizing.
At the beginning I let you and a few other developers take care of 2.40 and I stepped back and focus on X3 development. However I did not tell explicitly and emphasize how to manage the core development and coding style before people started to submit code to SVN, people were very keen to contribute.
It was too late when the quality was found out of control. In the 2.4.5 final release, the code was only partially cleaned. Really my bad.

Learning from that experiences, I believe MusS and Trabis will do much better on 2.5 development and I will offer my best help to them when I get time from X3 development.

nmshah

Just can't stay away
Posted on: 2010/8/5 6:40
nmshah
nmshah (Show more)
Just can't stay away
Posts: 556
Since: 2007/7/2 8
#22

Re: "Universal" module framework...

Mamba has a point about how do you update the framework if it is a part of core, you cant have a core update for evey small update to framework. At the same time catz has a point that if it is not maintained by the core team then it will become like any other module that gets left-out after sometime.

Just thinking out loud, So having a modular framework which is maintained by core team may resolve both these issues.

Mamba

Moderator
Posted on: 2010/8/5 6:50
Mamba
Mamba (Show more)
Moderator
Posts: 10823
Since: 2004/4/23
#23

Re: "Universal" module framework...

Quote:
At the same time catz has a point that if it is not maintained by the core team then it will become like any other module that gets left-out after sometime.

The core team has the same risk of leaving as we have with module developers! That's the reality.

If you look at XOOPS, how many changes did we have on the Core team?

Onokazu, Mithrandir, Skalpa - all gone...

So having Core team maintaining it, is the same if we have a good team of module developers who are making sure that the Module Framework fulfills their needs.

Of course, the best would be if both Core team and Module Development Team would work together on such Framework

Support XOOPS => DONATE
Use 2.5.10 | Docs | Modules | Bugs

nmshah

Just can't stay away
Posted on: 2010/8/5 7:01
nmshah
nmshah (Show more)
Just can't stay away
Posts: 556
Since: 2007/7/2 8
#24

Re: "Universal" module framework...

I meant as the part of what a core team members does, maintaining the framework becomes a part of it. So sure members from core team may change but there will never be a situation as long as the project continues that there is no member on the core team.
Quote:

Of course, the best would be if both Core team and Module Development Team would work together on such Framework

Completely agree with you on this. So as i see it the framework can be maintained by the core team and the recommendations for things that can improve the framework comes from the module developers. Then the module developer can work with the core team to update the framework

redheadedrod

Home away from home
Posted on: 2010/8/5 11:20
redheadedrod
redheadedrod (Show more)
Home away from home
Posts: 1296
Since: 2008/2/26
#25

Re: "Universal" module framework...

I thing this signature says a lot... ;)

Quote:

Nitin Shah
Most problems in world are result of poor communication


Although it sounds like "bickering" I am personally learning a lot from this back and forth. And I think it can only make things better in the long run.

I think we are all in agreement that we should be doing something and it looks like we are on the same page mostly there but just the semantics are different.

Anyhow, As I have said I am quite willing to work on this as a learning experience and hope other developers will help with this. To be honest I am a little "scared" only because this will be my first big project in about 20 years and although it is no where near as complicated as my robotics stuff programmed in line based basic, I am still relatively new to PHP. I do understand the majority of the concepts and such but my experience with PHP is very slight at this point. I do learn fast however and I SHOULD pick up a lot along the way but still I am a "new" php programmer. Even If I have read the 10+ books I have on PHP.

skenow

Home away from home
Posted on: 2010/8/6 0:13
skenow
skenow (Show more)
Home away from home
Posts: 993
Since: 2004/11/17
#26

Re: "Universal" module framework...

Quote:

Catzwolf wrote:

Trabis,

Since we both know that most of your work and my work is mostly derived from the core in some form or fashion, please tell me why this should NOT be included within the core and part of the core?

We both know that it should be and I cannot fathom for my life why we are even entertaining this idea of a module framework that is separate from the core.


What is the core except a framework of frameworks?

skenow

Home away from home
Posted on: 2010/8/6 0:22
skenow
skenow (Show more)
Home away from home
Posts: 993
Since: 2004/11/17
#27

Re: "Universal" module framework...

Quote:

redheadedrod wrote:

Well you have to start somewhere. And why reinvent the wheel. This is one of the beauties of open source code...


The beauty of opensource also can be ugly. If that were not true, then there would be no quarrels or litigation in OSS.

Quote:

To get a starting point I don't see an issue with using other peoples code. And actually as I have already said i would be looking at taking more then one of these developer frameworks and combining them into one. With the intention that you can hopefully just use the one framework with all of the supported pieces. Not to mention that the other developers have already worked these out for a reason.


Learning from and applying patterns to development is an honorable practice. Leaching code without attribution is not.

Quote:

But that is one of the purposes of this thread to discuss the starting point.

Doesn't necessarily mean the end product will be just a repackaging of something such as smartobjects.


Be careful here - you might not be fully informed about what Trabis is offering as 'xmf'.


Mamba

Moderator
Posted on: 2010/8/6 0:45
Mamba
Mamba (Show more)
Moderator
Posts: 10823
Since: 2004/4/23
#28

Re: "Universal" module framework...

Quote:
Learning from and applying patterns to development is an honorable practice. Leaching code without attribution is not.

Steve, be nice! The first thing what he did was the attribution:

"It is heavily based on smartobject and IPF"

So no baseless accusations or attacks, please!
Support XOOPS => DONATE
Use 2.5.10 | Docs | Modules | Bugs

skenow

Home away from home
Posted on: 2010/8/6 2:39
skenow
skenow (Show more)
Home away from home
Posts: 993
Since: 2004/11/17
#29

Re: "Universal" module framework...

Did I say Trabis leached code without attribution? No. You interpreted it that way. I did see the reference to IPF and it was adequate, but not sufficient. A short post in the forums is not full attribution, is it? Honestly, how many people actually know what 'IPF' is?

I am doing the best I can to restrain myself. This really isn't about the fork at all. Or, even about a 'module' framework, or the source of the code in xmf.

John N has some very valid concerns and you should listen to him. Do you think Ono, Mith and Skalpa left because they had nothing else to offer XOOPS? No, they left because people became short-sighted and stopped listening to them.

Once again, the XOOPS community is asking for transparency, not just code. They want to participate. It might seem scary or difficult to manage, but it can be done.

I hope you realize, as I posted earlier, that the core is a framework all its own, with a collection of other frameworks. There is a dependency of the core on modules and also a dependency of the modules on the core. They cannot be separated. If there was a 1-way dependency, only then could you separate them.

Back to being transparent, honest and having integrity - Will allow the word that cannot be spoken in the forums as a credit in your code? Trabis isn't using code that is 6 years old. He's using work Marc-Andre and I have committed in the past weeks and have been working on for several months. Openly, BTW. Can I provide a link to the SVN?

redheadedrod

Home away from home
Posted on: 2010/8/6 3:13
redheadedrod
redheadedrod (Show more)
Home away from home
Posts: 1296
Since: 2008/2/26
#30

Re: "Universal" module framework...

I have chatted a small amount with Trabis about this prior to his posting his messages here and my understanding is that it was more of an idea then anything else that he was kicking around. Its far from final code and was more of a concept then anything else at this point. I will let Trabis speak for himself otherwise if he so desires but I will leave it at that.

As to "ugly" code.. Yes I am fully aware of this. And will try to be mindful of this as I develop and evolve this. Unless of course someone else wants to do this that has a lot more experience.

I am doing some other projects as well so I am about 2 weeks out from starting this one. Which gives me time to learn a few things and try to sort out things before I start this.

Why am I willing to do this? I want to become a module developer and it is apparent that If I am going to make a series of modules and not just do some quick hacks I will need a framework. If I am going to spend the time to make my own I want to make it something that others can use as well. And if I am going to do that then I need to do the best job I can to make it something people will want to use. Plus I will hopefully get back some helpful insight along the way that I can use when I develop my own modules.