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Did you try the link Herko gaves you? For me it works when i try it as anonymous...

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Yes sir I did try the link given by Herko.

No it doesn't work for me as anonymous! Maybe I did not guess the correct password.

I think the different forums are seperating the community and diluting the knowledge base. A search of one forum does not include information from another. Shared knowledge is what drives faster developement.

I believe it is more productive to discuss issues of direction in an area where more minds can contribute to the solution of the problem. One of the greatest assets of this community is the great diversity of interest, perspectives and skills. To make the best use of it is to include the whole community.

hhttp://dev.xoops.org/modules/xfmod/tracker/?func=add&group_id=1001&atid=107

You don't have to log in at all, not as 'anonymous' or anything. Just follow this link.

I don't agree that having a website dedicated to development dilutes the knowledge base. In fact, I firmly believe it focusses the knowledge base: this site (http://www.xoops.org) is dedicated towards community support for everyone, the development forge website is dedicated to the more technical discussions of developing new modules and improving existing modules. Since the development projects are all public, and you can join those discussions at any time (without having to register for the website first), we keep it clear and focussed. This increases productivity for the developers as well as for the user community.

Herko

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From the link you have given here all you can do is post a bug report. Months ago you talked of haveing many sites where all could login with their current password and username. This sounded ok at the time. But we have not arrive at that point yet. The dev forge requires you to make application to participate in that community.

The problem with this approach is - it's a one-way street. Information in - no information out. It is great of course to have the community debug code. But this approach leaves the community out of the discussion and evolution of XOOPS developement. If the developers choose not to respond ita like throwing your thoughts into a black hole. If they are posted in the community forum someone will join the discussion. If the developers don't - the community does.

For example WFSection was released on Friday. For the complexity of this code it is amazingly bug free. Catzwolf did an exemplary job. However the code was a long time in coming. The development could have been accelerated by using the minds of the community. Many things happen, people have to eat, so they work, they have family commitments, the project gets delayed. But with a world wide community such as this someone is always ready to join the fray 24 hours a day 7 days a week. By Monday morning many of the remaining bugs have been squashed. This is because this whole community is very saavy. Sometimes many heads are better than one. Using the community is like tapping the universal mind. As we all know developers sometimes just run out of gas. Here we have a community eager to solve the task.

I have been a research and development engineer/programmer for longer than I wish to admit. From the dark ages when everyone created job security for themselves by hiding information. To the present day where open source is begining to rule. Open source is a win-win situation for all Management, Community and Enterprise.

Oh well enough of my bullshit - I only started this thread as a feature request for newbb. No offense intended.

Have a great week!

Thanks, you have a great week too And no offence is taken. I think this is a good discussion about how to organise community participation and development processes. Let me try to outline my thoughts on the points you raise.

We have decided to have two different types of XOOPS.org sites: user oriented websites (with a shared userbase) and developer oriented websites. This has been considered carefully, although it doesn't mean it is the solution.

XOOPS has been a development oriented community for a long time, but the growth of the userbase and support requests made it more and more difficult and complex to manage this properly. On the one hand, developers felt too much pressure from all these support requests, that they didn't enjoy developing their modules anymore. And since passion is a key element in open source development, we felt that we needed to create an environment where the developers could focus on what they are good at: writing code.
At the same time, I created a team that is good at writing user documentation, which is a big request from the community.
The upside of this is that those inside these teams have the facilities to do what they do best, for the benefit of all. They can focus on the job at hand and have the tools to do that. The fact that they're subcommunities also helps: likeminded people who they know better then a regular community member, who they are collaborating with and use as sparring partners generate a higher productivity then a more anonymous setting.
The obvious downside is that those outside those subcommunities feel left out -much like you describe yourself- and rightly so. We're trying to find the right balance between the nessecary privacy for the teams to do their work, and the equally nessecary openness that allows for community participation. And that balance is different for each development project.
In seeking this balance I have represented the user view (public unless...), while the developers have taken their view (what works best to get the job done...). Because the developers want (need!) their privacy, the development websites (docs and dev) are partially closed for non-developers. The reason developers have to apply for membership is to keep it as active as we can. And because security vulnerabilities are discussed there (if we find one, we fix it, so don't say that info needs to be public!) that we want to keep hidden from public eyes as much as possible.

Now lets put this next to the wfsections release by Catz. He developed this on his own, not using the shared environment of the Development Forge, which is his porrogative as a developer, of course. He set up his own support site for this module (wfsections.xoops2.com), and chooses to develop this odule by himself. I know Catz didn't have much time recently, hence his departure as the Module Development Team Leader and the subsequent lack of development in the wfsections module. But that is all in the game of open source development. Those community contributions have been added to his latest release.
However, the rules of open source development is that you are allowed to change the code and release it to the public. So you don't have to wait for Catz to release a new version (that's how xfsections was created). owever, in a perfect world, all these development projects are public, and everyone can contribute. That is the idea for the dev.xoops.org Development Forge, the projects are public and you can add your requests, bugs and patches there. It is up to the lead developer what he/she does with that, much like the wfsections development.

I hope this makes it a little clearer for you

Herko

I think I have to join this discussion right now, because it is also part of my business.

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True, this was announced a while ago, but setting up (for instance modules.xoops.org) another site could not be underestimated, but we are near the finish line.

I see your point of a all-in-one-place for Xoops-questions, BUT if we make it all-in-one xoops.org gets overloaded. There are a few sub sites to come (modules.xoops.org and themes.xoops.org) and if all this information would be merged in one place noone will find anything. Right now I have huge difficulties finding answers for my questions on xoops.org. Perhaps the built-in search engine of XOOPS is to blame? If I have to walk trough hundreds of posts for a solution this takes too much time and at some point I'm disappointed and give up searching.

My own 2 cents on spreading XOOPS into subsites with modules.xoops.org as an example:

- This site collects ALL modules for XOOPS in one place, so you don't have to search elsewhere
- This site minimizes the risk of losing modules when other sites housing modules (modscentral for instance) are closed
- All relevant questions on existing or requesting modules can be asked there
- Small sites make searching for solutions more efficient
- Organisation of the sites become easier. Too many webmasters or too less webmasters are not good for a site like xoops.org

No offense intended also.

Hi Francis,

I agree with you 100% on these points.

A. This site collects ALL modules for XOOPS in one place, so you don't have to search elsewhere

B. This site minimizes the risk of losing modules when other sites housing modules (modscentral for instance) are closed

C. All relevant questions on existing or requesting modules can be asked there

D. Perhaps the built-in search engine of XOOPS is to blame? If I have to walk trough hundreds of posts for a solution this takes too much time and at some point I'm disappointed and give up searching.

E. setting up (for instance modules.xoops.org) another site could not be underestimated,

With these points I do not agree.

1. BUT if we make it all-in-one xoops.org gets overloaded.
One site does not mean one server. One site can span many servers. This brings with it unlimited bandwidth and storage capacity. At least in the context of the XOOPS community.

2. Small sites make searching for solutions more efficient
You use Google don't you?

3. Organisation of the sites become easier. Too many webmasters or too less webmasters are not good for a site like xoops.org

And last,

I am not complaining about the time it takes to set up the other sites only the change in Attitude towards the commuity.

Best Wishes

Good Morning Herko,

Thank you for reply and caring enough to help me understand where you are coming from.

Let me give you my perspective. When I choose XOOPS as a possible choice for my CMS arsenal I had evaluated them all. Have you noticed how much they look alike? The thing that made me choose XOOPS over other content solutions was the technical saavy of this community. I have been working with this products for 60+ hours a week for almost a year. I have a huge investment of time in it. I care a great deal about the success of it. I have not become involved in the code development because I felt it was in good hands.

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The doucmentation team was great idea. They did a commendable job in a short time.

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What about groups, private forum and permissions. When the devs don't think enough of the features to use them. Who would? When developers don't use the product they make they lose the insight required to make it better. They will make their enviroment better! It's the nature of developers.

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What about groups, private forum and permissions. Unless XOOPS is tested in a high volume atmosphere it will tend to ramain a geeks play toy.. No offense I am a geek. Who can make the neatest theme, etc., etc. When someone puts up a new site have you ever seen one that had any real content?

Commerical users what and need reliably, not more database queries. We need authentication, abstract database layers, cross linking and better skinning. An applications developer can make awesome sites with just the news module and core features.

When a talented programmer comes on the scene they do as you say. They make XFSection, Newbb Pro and they push the developement to a higher level. The forums are alive with fixes and insights from every direction. Now you come along and convince them to join the forge. Nothing wrong with this. It is a freedom of choice thing. But what happens. The forums dies, like today for instance.

I have seen nothing come out of the forge that was new. Just different database queries.

Disable the forums on the forge reunite the community and lets get down to some serious business. Don't stifle open source with closed development. Lets realize the potential of such an awesome resouce as this community.

Best Wishes,

P.S. Oh by the I don't feel left out! I choose to keep my insights and knowledge out of the esoteric realm.

Anyway keep up the good work.

Hi RIchard,

A good morning to you too Thank you for your insights.

I think we both agree on the goals here: community participation on all levels. And I even agree on your implementation scheme, but there's a reason why I chose the current road.

The way of doing things you describe is what we are moving towards. This may sound strange, but consider the starting point I observed in August last year. At that time, the community was fading (for lack of a better word), in my opinion because of a lack of things to focus on. Onokazu and his team had moved mountains of work on XOOPS2, and was 'saturated' with XOOPS at that time. He had to run the site and do most of the support himself. Core development was what he wanted to be doing, but the enthusiasm from the community to stimulate that and him was minimal (he was seen as the one who solved problems). Development was closed and scattered.
I took the job to create topics the community can focus on, and organise that community participation is meaningful (adding to the bigger whole). On order to do that, I need to take a few steps, but eventually, it will be open and active , with quality standards that are high like people expect from XOOPS, and innovative and progressive. But untill there is a basic organisational structure, there is a high risk of community contributions being added to nothing, and that would mean the death of XOOPS.

So, yes I agree to the fullest extend, but have decided after careful consideration to take a slower path then some would like, or see possible for themself. Just remember that it is a development, not an end-station This is by no means an effort to put an end to this discussion, but if we continue this, I'd like the focus to be on the how we can achieve meaningful productive community participation on all fields, in as practical a sense as possible

Herko

As one of the devs on dev.xoops.org, I would like to give my input to this discussion.

There are some disadvantages of separating the community like this:
- Separation meaning posts go missing or get overlooked
- Feeling of being left out
- Developers get out of touch with the community

BUT there are also some very substantial advantages:
- More focused posting
- Every post is worth reading in a development context
- Tighter developer community
- Better management of projects with trackers etc. in the XoopsForge module

The forge could also be here, but it would clutter up the appearance a LOT, I think, if we should also have XoopsForge blocks and links around the page.
I can have notification on every forum post on dev.xoops.org, because I know that every post there could be interesting to me - and not just someone asking how to install XOOPS (don't get me wrong, it's not because I don't want to help newbies, but I also like to separate things - and I like to have a "newbie-free" zone for discussions on a more focused developer level)

I have also learned more about the other developers and what they can do in XOOPS and how. Plus I get good feedback to questions, I ask.

And it is not a closed community as such - since everyone can add a project there. I think it is rather good, actually, that in order to get the benefit of the dev talks you need to show some dedication by having your own project or joining one of the existing ones. To receive, you need to give - that's not unfair to me

(it's good that we discuss it, but I do feel that the advantages way top the disadvantages)