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12monkeys

Just popping in
Posted on: 2006/1/3 9:06
12monkeys
12monkeys (Show more)
Just popping in
Posts: 17
Since: 2006/1/2 1
#21

Re: Surveys and/or polls on XOOPS.org?

LOL you honestly think your childish bahaviour here will prove to me and the rest of the community that your opinion matters more then anyone else's, and that you've earned more respect then I have? What a joke!

Seriously, you're only making a fool of yourself here. Very intelligent comments interlaced with extremely rude racist madman comments. If youhonestly have to resort to those tools every time you feel threatened by someone else's opinion, I pity you. I'm sorry, and you don't have to agree of course, but I do.
[edited]

12monkeys

Just popping in
Posted on: 2006/1/3 9:42
12monkeys
12monkeys (Show more)
Just popping in
Posts: 17
Since: 2006/1/2 1
#22

Re: Surveys and/or polls on XOOPS.org?

Quote:

Damaster wrote:
read from wikipedia how the Swiss manage their country. How they apply "direct democracy" through referedums?


Good read, thanks, very interesting I hear referenda aren't all that succesful in the EU though

Quote:
Wikipedia writes:
A fundamental objection to direct democracy is that the public generally gives only superficial attention to political issues and is thus susceptible to charismatic argument or demagoguery.

Another objection to direct democracy is that of practicality and efficiency. Deciding all or most matters of public importance by direct referendum is slow and expensive (especially in a large community), and can result in public apathy and voter fatigue.


It seems that public apathy can also be reached without referenda.

I can't find anywhere in the articles on direct democracy or here on this website that this particular polictical model applies to XOOPS. Or on any other open source project, for that matter.

A recent study from a fellow researcher from Europe showed that most open source communities have meritocratic decision making processes (Linux kernel, postgreSQL, Debian, Apache) (Bonaccorsi & Rossi 2003, Fielding 1999, Markus et al 2000, Moon & Sproull 2000, Egyedi & Van Wendel de Joode 2004). This means that you earn the right to vote based on your merits, what you have contributed to everyone's benefit. The more you contribute, the more influential your vote will be.
Debian has a system based on the Condorcet Voting SYstem, which is fairly complex. Votes are cast to select the best alternative, and everyone indicates their preference by ranking the alternatives. The alternative that is preferred by the majority (not the one with the highest overall score) is then chosen. Debian has hardly ever used it.
The Apache community has a simpler method than that of Debian. A vote is held at every commit. The vote usually does not amount to anything much. The patch will stay in if no-one votes negatively. The contributors participating in the voting process have 3 options: +1 if they agree, 0 if they abstain and -1 if they disagree. If you as a participant vote +1 then you automatically commit yourself to the patch. You become partly responsible for it. If afterwards it turns out to be faulty, then you have the responsibility to remove it and clean up the code. The voting system is not used to decide on which branch to use (if two alternatives are developed separately), nor is it used to decide on issues bigger than one module.

The study furthermore shows that the results of the voting isn't really important, and can easily be ignored. Decisions get added to the to-do list (PostgreSQL), but everyone can still decide for themselves what they want to do. It is the nature of open source.

And then there are other political systems to consider. There is of course the representative democracy in which voters choose (in free, secret, multi-party elections) representatives to act in their interests, but not as their proxies—i.e., not necessarily according to their voters' wishes, but with enough authority to exercise initiative in the face of changing circumstances. Another form of representative democracy involves impartial selection of representatives through sortition.

There are many forms of government and governance out there. If there was one that was the ideal form it would be used more often (despite what we Americans say ).

Mamba

Moderator
Posted on: 2006/1/3 10:12
Mamba
Mamba (Show more)
Moderator
Posts: 10792
Since: 2004/4/23
#23

Re: Surveys and/or polls on XOOPS.org?

Quote:

12monkeys wrote:
A recent study from a fellow researcher from Europe showed that most open source communities have meritocratic decision making processes (Linux kernel, postgreSQL, Debian, Apache) (Bonaccorsi & Rossi 2003, Fielding 1999, Markus et al 2000, Moon & Sproull 2000, Egyedi & Van Wendel de Joode 2004). This means that you earn the right to vote based on your merits, what you have contributed to everyone's benefit. The more you contribute, the more influential your vote will be.


Totally agree with the finding. Contributions should be the only criteria, and not how loud the person is.
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Marco

Home away from home
Posted on: 2006/1/3 18:06
Marco
Marco (Show more)
Home away from home
Posts: 1256
Since: 2004/3/15
#24

Re: Surveys and/or polls on XOOPS.org?

to be more "constructive centric", i think could be great to make a poll on these subjects :
- how old are XOOPS users
- what are they using XOOPS for ? Community based, intranet, ecommerce, blog, corporate website ?

any thoughts about these ?
Do synergy or die.

davidl2

XOOPS is my life!
Posted on: 2006/1/3 18:10
davidl2
davidl2 (Show more)
XOOPS is my life!
Posts: 4843
Since: 2003/5/26
#25

Re: Surveys and/or polls on XOOPS.org?

A users/uses survey would certainly be interesting indeed...

Marco

Home away from home
Posted on: 2006/1/3 18:36
Marco
Marco (Show more)
Home away from home
Posts: 1256
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#26

Re: Surveys and/or polls on XOOPS.org?

i'm just curious to know what is average age of our community members, i think, but i can be wrong, that it should have changed for a few months...
marco
Do synergy or die.

stefan88

Community Support Member
Posted on: 2006/1/3 18:48
stefan88
stefan88 (Show more)
Community Support Member
Posts: 1085
Since: 2004/9/20
#27

Re: Surveys and/or polls on XOOPS.org?

Quote:
- what are they using XOOPS for ? Community based, intranet, ecommerce, blog, corporate website ?


IMHO and that is what I was trying to say in some other posts, you shuld ask those questions BEFORE making decisions on XOOPS4. Asking community what he needs - a stable CMS system, that one could rely on, OR a futuristic experiment with uncertan future that will prove developers expertise in programming (which I do not question!)
There is no clear statement from XOOPS Core what the future of XOOPS will be. Here I'm not talking about development and architecture, I'm talking about market. Do you know who your users are, what they need.

-You could ask those questions and listen to answers.
-After that you may forget about democracy and take some decision.
-And immediately(!) after that you shuld make a clear statement what we could expect from xoops. The people that need something diferent could start looking for other solution instead of waiting for an year and not know what to expect. Otherwise you show disrespect to those people (the community)

As for the respect - it shuld be earned, and that is slow process. On the other hand it is very easy to lose it - only one or two wrong steps are needed.
If you joined XOOPS yesterday and have 6 posts so far you will have to earn it. If you was here under another name, but afreid to post with it - you lost it.
I'm not very old member here, but I remember time when you would not have to wait hours to see new post and days untll you get help. Many good and helpfull people are not here any more or do not bother to be active. Part of the XOOPS spirit was lost.
When I strted using Xoops,I had problems with the system - it is not the easyest to be used/customised, but I chose it for the community here. If I have to make the choice again, I'm not so shure ...

I'm far away of thinking to say to Skalpa or Mith how to code - I can't and they do not need it! But not everything in a project like XOOPS is coding ...
..

Marco

Home away from home
Posted on: 2006/1/3 19:08
Marco
Marco (Show more)
Home away from home
Posts: 1256
Since: 2004/3/15
#28

Re: Surveys and/or polls on XOOPS.org?

Quote:

you shuld ask those questions BEFORE making decisions on XOOPS4. Asking community what he needs - a stable CMS system, that one could rely on, OR a futuristic experiment with uncertan future that will prove developers expertise in programming (which I do not question!)
There is no clear statement from XOOPS Core what the future of XOOPS will be. Here I'm not talking about development and architecture, I'm talking about market. Do you know who your users are, what they need.

More precise Roadmap will come soon.
But, IMHO, this is more complex than that.
I think, XOOPS should be mix between a vision and users needs.
About vision, we should be proud to have one guy that pushes XOOPS one step beyond others (cms). He has first to design a new architecture that will help us adding more quicky new features without breaking module compatibility.That's what he is currently doing.
About users's needs, we have plenty of them listed in our forums,and we take them into account, but i was suggesting these poll's subjects to have, first, an overall look on our community.



marco
Do synergy or die.

12monkeys

Just popping in
Posted on: 2006/1/3 19:15
12monkeys
12monkeys (Show more)
Just popping in
Posts: 17
Since: 2006/1/2 1
#29

Re: Surveys and/or polls on XOOPS.org?

I'm guessing the following is a reply to my posts:

Quote:

stefan88 wrote:
As for the respect - it shuld be earned, and that is slow process. On the other hand it is very easy to lose it - only one or two wrong steps are needed.

That's a sad way to look at relationships. Why not do the reverse? Treat someone with the respect you would like to be treated with yourself upon first meeting? Doesn't the bible say 'do not unto others what thou wouldst not unto thyself'?
I agree in my previous post that merits are the currency that buys you extra influence. And with that comes respect, I'm sure. But basic human respect isn't something that needs to be earned, but freely given. Maybe that's just my own optimistic view of life and love.

Quote:
If you joined XOOPS yesterday and have 6 posts so far you will have to earn it. If you was here under another name, but afreid to post with it - you lost it.

I have joined after being a long time lurker. I felt I could stay silent no longer, and think I have something serious to add to the debate. Again here too I expect some basic human respect, but that was blatantly and inhumanly rejected by mr. Badger. To what purpose I don't know. And I don't care, frankly. I'm not here to argue endlessly about him, I'm here to add my views to the pot-pourri of views and opinions here.
And I'm not here to earn any extra respect. If it is freely given, I'll gladly accept. If not, so be it. You don't have to agree.

Quote:
I'm not very old member here, but I remember time when you would not have to wait hours to see new post and days untll you get help. Many good and helpfull people are not here any more or do not bother to be active. Part of the XOOPS spirit was lost.

What in your opinion is that spirit of XOOPS? I think it's members helping other members. Not because they feel pushed or obliged, but because it is rewarding to them. And I always noticed that the reward is not in the gratitude of something so vague and conceptual as the community or its leaders, but in the thankyou's from the people that were helped. And, since it is an open community, people move on. Yes, I agree some of the spirit of XOOPS is lost, but some of that spirit is a romantic version of what used to be. And some was chased away by people like mr. Badger who showed that there's a darker side to every community as well. And the rest was destroyed by the leaders, chance, progress, or whatever you call it. But don't think that spirit is gone. It goes deeper than you can imagine. And it is easy to revive. You just wait and see. It may not be the same version of the XOOPS spirit, or I'm sure it will not be that. But it isn't dead by a long shot

Quote:
When I strted using Xoops,I had problems with the system - it is not the easyest to be used/customised, but I chose it for the community here. If I have to make the choice again, I'm not so shure ...

And that's the beauty of it. Open source is all about this freedom. Freedom to come and go, to help or withold assistance, to contribute or just to take and use. And everybody here has that freedom. It's what binds us all, and what motivates us to stay.

Quote:
I'm far away of thinking to say to Skalpa or Mith how to code - I can't and they do not need it! But not everything in a project like XOOPS is coding ...
What do you want to add, from yourself to this project, to its community, to the pool of resources? What would make you happy if you could bring this to the pool? If you figure that out, you can be part of it all

damaster

Just can't stay away
Posted on: 2006/1/3 20:04
damaster
damaster (Show more)
Just can't stay away
Posts: 556
Since: 2003/5/11
#30

Re: Surveys and/or polls on XOOPS.org?

Hi 12monkeys,

Your reaction was predictable i'm glad to hear that you enjoy and learned a lot. But let me say that meritocracy was invocated here by Jason a few months ago. Based on that and the number of yours and my posts. We don't have nothing to say here.

"The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself."

That said, you would agree that since our first post in this thread we have showed how proud of ourselves we are and how much we need to prove to ourselves that we can do it...

Maybe for someone it could be understood as an action to get some notoriety here too...

Finally it was easy to give you that "trick". Please, don't feel manipulated, it was not my intention to hurt your self-esteem as i believe it is important to the community that someone comes out with that explanation. So community will not stop at the number of posts of a member to define his merit and we also get a chance to get there: 7'777


P.S. What about the merit of the founder of this project and community that actual Leaders put hands over? On this Link let me know what you think about it? OpenSource? Meritocracy?
I like people more than machines or money. But that's me!
Lets do something good and great: Lets do open source!