Whoa!!
Domineaux... I understand your troubles and sympathise with you.

BUT... I have some opinions.

RULE of Open Source No 1:- is to 'Release Early, Release Often'
(http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/ar01s04.html)

Only when the Devs release a product early in the development chain, most bugs would be wiped out well before the product matures when it would be more difficult to remove it.

Secondly, often releases enable all users to find the bugs and report them so that the devs can deal with them.

USER HAVE A DUTY. THIS DUTY IS TO INSTALL THE BETAS, TEST THEM AND REPORT THE BUGS.

Only if the Users fulfill this duty with as much enthusiasm as the devs have to develop the product, will the Product move from Beta to Live version.

So, one cannot just ask for quality without contributing to the effort.

If you find a product buggy, just post the bug here.

Join the efforts. We all stand to gain.

Thanks!

I just posted my first module and it's completely in beta and it has bugs.

I expect to get out of beta, but I couldn't tell you when because I have to balance open source work with survival.

But I do understand the frustration of looking for an answer and not finding one.

open source means having pateints and an understanding that technology is a journey not a destination.

The thing I think is cool about the XOOPS community is you find people giving support for modules they only use and didn't build.

It can be hard trying to find information on a XOOPS site that doesn't have an english translation. But then I also think it sucks that some none english reading/speaking XOOPS users can't contribute to my module or even this thread.

Eventually a translation could come. If everyone thinks first how they can contribute and then what they can recieve.

All that being said I agree with domineaux, an easy way for people to know what is beta and what is not beta might help create better first impressions.

Whoa again!

I take no issue against betas. I'm just fine with quick releases of betas.

I think betas should have a separate place in downloads, and they should have limited life spans as betas.

Betas are usually completed products with very minor issues. Issues, the developer hopes to resolve in a very short time frame.

There are many modules in XOOPS that have been beta indefinitely............. I expect them to continue as beta, if the past is any indicator of the future.

Obviously, beta has various meanings among XOOPS members.

If someone needs help with a module I think the spirit of these boards is to help. So...why not just ask for help, share some of the credit and develop a valuable community module. Let's face it all the modules eventually become community projects over time, with changes in the core and the other development tools available.

I'm relatively new to Xoops, but my experience on past projects has shown that one problem is getting people to test beta versions and provide useful bug reports. I don't know if that's an issue here.

Personally, I have gained most from having a website with my modules with support forums there instead of here.

I have got a lot of feedback from users there, which I have not had here (perhaps BECAUSE I have the possibilities on my site)

My opinion is that xoops.org should be about XOOPS and official XOOPS modules (that is, the modules distributed with the core - later it should be the modules with the official XOOPS stamp). Third party modules should be supported on the module writer(s) website.

Hello Domineaux et al.

I have restrained myself from adding my comment here until now. I agree with the need to organise the quality and availability of sound documentation and can only say that this IS happening on a pretty rapid basis. Progress may seem slow for those waiting, but there's a lot to do!

Have a look at this thread HERE with regards to module standards and quality control. Once again, all this IS happeneing right now, but I will respectfully defer to core team members to comment further as they see fit.

Regards Richard

Carnuke and others

I wasn't thinking as much in terms of categories as described in the link you provided.

My thinking is that new users of XOOPS need encouragement. Poorly working betas is not the way to provide encouragement. I remember how many times I've had to make postings on simple issues, and frequently just delete mods after days of working with them. There just were not viable solutions to the problems, and some of them are still beta after approximatley a year in the downloads section.

The number of modules and other add-ons is really not that large, and certainly not so large that users can't scroll and review the mods. Many mods are not very well described and if often takes several postings to forums to determine exactly what certain mods actually do provide in terms of what they provide.

Now! we need the beta mods separated from good viable working download mods.

I'd like to see more incentive to get mods out of beta or delete them from downloads if they aren't final within a reasonable time period.

I agree that mod builders should provide the majority of support for their respective software on their own sites, especially during beta. I still think betas are a good community service, so I wouldn't be inclinded to only allow final mods on downloads. I just think the two should be separated by final and beta in the downloads. In fact, it might be that betas have not category at all...just beta.

Separating mods by beta and final, would claify for users betas are incomplete and further support is needed and provided on the author's site.

---------------------

Quote:

I think this is the main arm of your argument... and I think you are right. However, I would pick up a point made earlier, that is XOOPS is clearly a development environment that relies heavily on user participation for trialing and proving. Having said that, users should have a clear choice to be part of that development process and opt for beta versions OR chose a safer option and use a final version.

In theory the more beta trialers there are, the sooner a module should be debugged and re-evalued as final. So this process is essential as a means to that end.


From what I am interpreting from various posts about this, we can expect to see much better demarkation and organisation within development and software distribution in the near future. My link to the previous post is a strong indication of this already happening.

The kind of issues you point out are painfully valid, but not unusual in open source development. However, the most important observation to my mind is that the core team are aware of these things and making a strong bid to fulfill all these requirements. Now , that is unusual in open source!

To validate that comment, just take a look at CMS watch website. Many developers are slated for these issues discussed here and many of those are commercial ventures, which is even worse.


Regards, Richard

Carnuke and others

I appreciate we can discuss this subject with some candor.

One important issue I didn't clarify about long standing betas. I've seen several examples lately where other developers have taken on projects, which have been in beta for long periods of time. In other words, the mod is needed by the community and someone starts the mod. The mod is put up beta, but the follow thru is in adequate.

As a matter of courtesy and respect for another developer's work most developers that could probably finish the mod...don't. The project drags on indefinitely the mod stays beta, and the community is not well served.

A time frame for betas might well serve the community better. I realize there may be some developers that just wouldn't put up their mods until they're darned close to finishing it. Some might argue that delays things, but others might say...betas are not intended as anything more than to make refinements in an already complete mod.

I'm not saying that "beta downloads & final downloads" is the only "good idea" for dealing with betas. Betas are important to development, but let's face it often the starting developer may not have skills to finish the mod without community assistance. My "thinking well" runs dry occassionally...and other's ideas can sure be the catalyst that gets me moving on.

My inclination is to do something about betas, that is quick and simple, which won't require a lot of effort on anyone's part.

I don't think I need to give examples of long standing betas that other Xoopers are clamouring for even now. Some developers have even taken initiative to produce these mods, via other descriptions and similar names.

If long standing betas are removed from the XOOPS sites as downloads it should open the avenue for other developers to taken on the unfinished modules possibly under different descriptions.

When a mod us put up for download on the XOOPS sites it is awarded a type of credential, even if it is beta. A module put up for download on an XOOPS site, whether beta or no is providing some protection for the original developer. Other developers will hesitatingly take on projects, which are already up for download, beta or not.

Again, I am not against betas, just long standing betas.