Re: The Wave of Change IS Upon Us!
  • 2007/5/21 19:11

  • jfmoore

  • Quite a regular

  • Posts: 360

  • Since: 2004/6/6 5


JMorris wrote:
Well, the merge they are talking about IS 2.4. It's just that there have been delays. Mainly, Skalpa was ill.

I haven't said yet that I'm glad he is recovering, and is back, so let me say it now.


Well, if this is anyone's "fault" it is mine. Basically, I considered this news hearsay since it was told to me by Skalpa in an IM conversation. The community kept asking for news and none came, so I took it upon myself to get news from Skalpa by contacting him directly.

Understood, but however you came by it, if it is official, and if you have permission to announce it, then it is big and should be announced, IMHO, in the Development forum.


Should it have been announced as news? I don't think so because there is no code released to back it up right now. The Core Dev Team is getting back to basics. That being code. Their code will be doing the talking for them.

I'm going to have to disagree here. A change of philosophy or direction IS news, even if not a single line of code has been written.


Well, I would agree with you here. Communication does need work, but I really don't think this community understands *how* things should be communicated.

You see, this project started out as a fork of another project. In its early days, it was small and the developers could communicate directly with the community. Then, it was a "mini-project" that had a small community of users and developers.

Now, this project is all grown up and is no longer a "mini-project". However, we still have a very small number of developers. 3 Core Developers to be exact. There is absolutely no way that these 3 people can realistically participate in the "community" discussions and still meet the demands of developing XOOPS, while still having lives.

Think about it for a second... Can you discuss things with the lead developer of RedHat Linux? No, you can't. Why? The project is too big for this to be realistic.

A good point which we should all try to remember. Another thing we should try to keep in mind is that just 5 words followed by a short paragraph or two will go along way towards preventing thousands of others. The words are

"Here's where we are today-"


Instead, you have a team of experienced support personnel who act as an interface between the developers and the community. These members watch the code, interpret the project progress, and report the progress back to the community. Bug reports are submitted through the appropriate channels, and when something comes up in the community that is not appropriately reported through the right channels, senior members of the community make sure things are reported correctly.

Don't see a thing wrong with this.


What people here don't seem to understand is XOOPS is not the project it was 2, 3, 4 years ago. It is waaaaaay bigger.

Yes, it would have been nice for the Core Developers to tell people this, but considering they have been busy with completely rebuilding XOOPS from the ground up, well, I personally can't be mad at them for not participating in the mess that this site has become lately.

I can't speak for all, but, as far as I am concerned, let the devs attend to coding and maybe even indulge in a little personal life from time to time. I don't feel the least bit of need to speak with them directly.

It would be nice, though, to have an "About" page with pictures and all where we could get to know them a little. Like Solo's article on the XOOPS conference in France. That was nice.


Yes, a lot of changes are needed. This includes a change in attitude and expectations for us all. We have to stop thinking and acting like a small project and start thinking on a larger scale.

Can't disagree with that. It does feel, however, like a large project getting smaller instead of the other way around.


A lot is being done to facilitate this, and I wish this could all be done out in the open, but unfortunately, the current environment of this site doesn't allow this. However, this will change VERY soon.

This site, as it exists now, will soon be archived and replaced by 3 new sites that are much more professional, much more appropriate for a large Open Source Project, and, with regards to the community aspects of the project, much better suited to collaboration.

Now, see, that is the point. When we get information, it is in bits and pieces scattered all around. When taken as a whole, it is good sound info which is probably adequate. But we never see it all unless we read every single post in every single thread in every single forum, even those which are suppose to be "not Xoops-related". So, I guess if I were to make one suggestion it would be to get all development news together in one place and make it read only. When we want to discuss or ask about it, then we can do that in the appropriate place(s).


I'm not talking false promises here. If you take a minute to step back from the "drama" and look at what is going on, you will see the progress being made all around.

Problem is news of it is scattered all around.


* A call to action for the new repository
* The XOOPS Wiki was launched
* XOOPS Docs was launched
* The new servers were publicly tested
* The cross reference of the 2.0.16 core was published
* The "Starting a New XOOPS Site" Case Study was published

There is even more, but I can't remember it all.

I don't mean to belabor the point, but, if timely posted in the correct manner in the correct place, you wouldn't have to remember it all, and you could save yourself a lot of typing practice.


The point is, the community IS being heard and work is being done. In fact, the rate of progress has actually increased.

Now, on a different note, there has been a LOT of negativity around here lately. I have to be honest and admit that I've had more than my part in this. For that, I am sincerely sorry. I have no excuse. I lost my temper with those who I felt were attacking something I'm a firm believer in. I should have taken a step back and "heard" what was being said, instead of "how" it was being said. I don't agree with many of the points made, but I should have disagreed in a more appropriate way.

I cannot go back and change what I have done, but I can change how I behave. I hope that will be enough to be helpful here.

Heck, we're all human. Most of us anyway. It is a fact, though, that when moderators add fuel, we should not be surprised at the subsequent conflagration. That's not a criticism since I cannot say that I would have done any better at all and would probably not have done as well. Just an observation.


This is an overly long-winded post and I apologize for that, but the point I'm trying to get across here is this...

Hey, I enjoyed it. Thanks for taking the time.


Hang in there just a little longer and much of what you have been asking for will become a reality.

Never a question of what. Just wondered when?


Re: The Wave of Change IS Upon Us!
  • 2007/5/21 19:52

  • Anonymous

  • Posts: 0

  • Since:

JMorris wrote:

After all, isn't the most important thing we are all here for the code?

Actually, old chap........no!! We can (and at this precise instant have to) get our code (i.e. modules) elsewhere. But this is being worked on

Mind you - depends what you mean by "here".

If by "here" you mean the entity that is XOOPS, then yes.

If by "here" you mean xoops.org then, for me, the answer is "no".

I'm here at xoops.org to find out what other people are doing, maybe borrow an idea or two and hopefully contibute one or two of my own and, more generally, I'm here for the sense of community and well-being, knowing that if things went FUBAR with my XOOPS site I'd get some help pdq (like I did from Bender when something went awry in my db).

This site isn't just about code

Re: The Wave of Change IS Upon Us!
  • 2007/5/21 20:10

  • JMorris

  • XOOPS is my life!

  • Posts: 2722

  • Since: 2004/4/11

If by "here" you mean the entity that is XOOPS, then yes.

That's what I was meaning.

But yes, you are right, there is much more to this community than code.

I recently discussed this with someone else. Remember the April fools joke of M$ buying XOOPS? Remember how much fun it use to be to log in and see what new and innovative ideas had sprung from the community?

I hope we can return to that friendly, fun, and helpful atmosphere, but in a much better environment. I think we are well on our way, but there is still a lot of work left to be done.
Insanity can be defined as "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

Stupidity is not a crime. Therefore, you are free to go.

Re: The Wave of Change IS Upon Us!
  • 2007/5/21 20:19

  • Anonymous

  • Posts: 0

  • Since:

JMorris wrote:

I hope we can return to that friendly, fun, and helpful atmosphere, but in a much better environment. I think we are well on our way, but there is still a lot of work left to be done.

I hope so too - it was like that no so long ago, i.e. before I joined. Read into that what you will.....

Anyway... time for bed as I have a real world to live in, too. 'night all.

John V

PS: James...... I've "borrowed" your avatar - hope you don't mind?


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