xoops forums

Mithrandir

XOOPS is my life!
Posted on: 2005/4/27 21:56
Mithrandir
Mithrandir (Show more)
XOOPS is my life!
Posts: 6320
Since: 2003/6/21
#51

Re: What's going on with XOOPS

Quote:
Who cares how useful the information in a particular native language forum is to others? This is the responsibility of the 'local site representative'... if he/she deems it appropriate it Will be translated and moved to the appropriate forum (where it can be read in english). If he/she deems it inappropriate, the responsibility of that action lies with the 'local site representative' and not the organization. This distributes the responsibility for timely posts to the 'local site representative', just as having multi lingual submissions to the specific geography's forum distributes the the aggregation of news items to the community.

So... as I understand your point, when someone posts something on e.g. the French community website that could be of interest to other people, he/she should also post it in the French "Geography" forum here on xoops.org? Then a French community representative will see it and translate it.

To me it would make more sense that news and other information that is interesting to the XOOPS community in general would be spotted on the local site - where the representatives "hang out" anyway - and translated to a post in the closed forums here. Then the WOX newsletter team and other community site representatives can see the English text and judge whether it should be put in the newsletter or translated to e.g. a news article on the Finnish or Japanese support site. I don't understand why you want that additional non-English content here on xoops.org when it can be taken directly from the local site.

Regarding moving all the local sites to xoops.org, I'm not sure that is what the local sites want (correct me if I'm wrong) but maybe I am missing your point, Damaster.
Regarding the deleted post about recognizing errors etc. I don't recall seeing that post so if you can highlight the main points, I would be happy to discuss them.

LazyBadger

Home away from home
Posted on: 2005/4/27 22:06
LazyBadger
LazyBadger (Show more)
Home away from home
Posts: 1187
Since: 2004/6/7 9
#52

Re: Whats going on with XOOPS

Quote:

A few weeks ago, some master was sending "letters" to some local communities and posting here asking each others to recognize its own errors and to look at those (mentioned xaraya) that do better to progress, how to work together and remain humble keeping spirit's united, strongest.

If I'll try to answer shortly, I'll have to say that
- Xaraya uses different (orthogonal) communication model between language-specific sites Xaraya team (note - language-specific, not country-specific and main site definition and entity really missing): no local sites, only translated mirrors of one of language sites - "en", there are no life on local sites reflected to en.

I don't think it better or worse model, it's simply another model and significantly lesser "world"

LazyBadger

Home away from home
Posted on: 2005/4/27 22:14
LazyBadger
LazyBadger (Show more)
Home away from home
Posts: 1187
Since: 2004/6/7 9
#53

Re: What's going on with XOOPS

Quote:

To me it would make more sense that news and other information that is interesting to the XOOPS community in general would be spotted on the local site - where the representatives "hang out" anyway - and translated to a post in the closed forums here.

Can't see reason even for closed forum. If I catch good news, information, solution - I'll ask author repear it to news (or whatever can serve better) here. If he can't do it (lang-problem, connectivity-problem, time-problem) I'll do it for him, and leave decision "publish or not" in the area of xoops.org webmasters responsibility.
Full period.

LazyBadger

Home away from home
Posted on: 2005/4/27 22:39
LazyBadger
LazyBadger (Show more)
Home away from home
Posts: 1187
Since: 2004/6/7 9
#54

Re: What's going on with XOOPS

I suppose, well started topic (will serous questions) move now in slightly wrong direction. Let's return to roots.
Main problem (as I see and hope understand correctly) is not lack of inter-comunity and community-dev communications.
Main complaint is about different views of tactic and strategy of XOOPS developments as system. In detail...While Dev team want to add "bells and whistles" (in the eyes of Hardcore Japan PHP-programmers), they want to pay main (full, exclusive...) attention on quality of code (maybe even without visible at front-end changes) and real and possible security weaks. They don't want beauty, they want power, even if it seems as night-horror.
What is Oreteki-XOOPS (as I grok it)? Hardened and cleared XOOPS without any of not serving two mentioned targets features.
Without accepatble for both sides solution on the current XOOPS codebase ideological contradiction can't be resolved. And Japan party have some sort of "heavy artillery" on her side - I just mention one person, GIJOE, ok, and his contributions last times?!
I don't know, who didn't hear japan developers and other insiders, and don't want know - why. It's not my game... But I see this problem as bad, evil sign - something broken in body of XOOPS development team. Lacks of communication produce lacks of organsation, which produce chaos of forks and segregation
DIXI

Catzwolf

Home away from home
Posted on: 2005/4/27 23:18
Catzwolf
Catzwolf (Show more)
Home away from home
Posts: 1392
Since: 2007/9/30
#55

Re: What's going on with XOOPS

This thread does not in one bit surprise me at all.

For the last few months I have sat and watched this unfold into the fiasco that it now is. There are two sets of people here at Xoops, the in crowd and the ones on the outside looking in.

The current core members to not care for anyone else but themselves when it comes to the development of Xoops. Sure, you might actually start listening to people but normally it takes a sledgehammer to hit before the information sinks in.

The Japanese community have been trying to get your attention over matters that they regarded high on the list for the development of XOOPS only to be ignored until someone finally took noticed and realised that there was a massive hole in Xoops, and even then you lot reluctantly took notice. This is not the first time that this has happened and you only need to venture through these and other forums for that evidence.

So why has XOOPS lost so many of the top developers over the last year? Why has so much talent gone from the development of XOOPS and why is nothing being done to prevent this from happening? I could give you a list as long as my arm of the people who have left or are extremely unhappy with the current XOOPS team and the way that XOOPS is being developed. Why do I know? Because I have personally spoken to many XOOPS module developers regarding this matter and message is very clear.

I think it is about time that people on these forums who rather adhere to arse licking and just agreeing for the sake of agreeing took a few steps back and realised that even though the number of XOOPS users grow, the amount of modules, themes and work to the core is actually going down and there are not the number of raw new talent coming in to take over the place of lost talent.

The sad fact is this, the core doesn't bring people to Xoops, its the modules and themes that people use in a daily context that does. I have said this before and I will say this again, the current thinking of the core is to throw out as much as possible to the outside developers (Hacks, modules, themes etc) and hope that these people carry on the development of what I regard as key core development area's and not down to others. You just have to look at the issues going on now to understand how fucking stupid this current thinking is by the core. The more key development that is sustained by the core thus means that important areas stay up to date, secure and hopefully written to the XOOPS OO standard. This offloading of work WILL backfire in the long run.

Apparently the next version of XOOPS totally disregards module developers by the fact that all modules (from what I have read) will be rendered useless due to the new way that modules are dealt with. So what does this mean to everyone? Well with the lack of current module developers around today, who is going to take over the role of converting all the modules that wont work, don't have developers currently working on them and those modules that where originally core modules? Will the core team do this, oh I forgot, they couldn’t be pissed assed actually doing work on them any more. Hell, no wonder Mambo is running riot at the moment with the awards that it’s winning just now.

The sad fact is this, when the new version comes out, what will you have?

Someone mentioned a fork in this thread; you really don't have a clue how close that actually happened. I can tell you now that many XOOPS module developers (Yes ones that are here right now) actually started putting this plan into action and where going to fork Xoops. Yes, we have a name for this new CMS, we have the development structure in place and we have many Module, theme developers to do the job and are unwilling to put any more time into XOOPS development.

We then decided to wait until the new version came out before we would decide which way to continue. You have to ask yourself this question, WHY??? Ask yourself that question please. Why we developers have decided to do this? Because, we are extremely unhappy with what is going on in Xoops, both with (some) members of the current core and the direction of XOOPS it self.

I know I am going to get 'shit' for this post but personally I couldn't care less. I am telling you how it is, the other developers feel but are unwilling to say (except for Phppp) anything in fear of being labelled a traitor to the XOOPS cause.

I left XOOPS because of the crass and bullshit covering the already showing cracks in the XOOPS foundation. Being told how wonderful everything was and how fantastic things are and the self style jubilations and pats on our own back in a job well done, when the people who matter where saying, look something is wrong here and were just ignored.

When I was with WF-Projects, we asked if one line could be inserted into a java script function last year. To us it seemed more sensible to add one line to a core function rather than have to write more code that wasn't needed. We where told, 'No'. Again, I mention that there was a serious bug with compression and the error handler system (Oh Compression doesn't actually work as it stands just now without hacking the system) and FYI, the compression bug is a well-known issue at the PHP site, you might just want to have a look one day. These are just two examples of many, many, many which have been completely ignored. (Well unless you are part of the in crowd, then that’s a different matter. Just look at the fixes and addition names with each version of Xoops).

Well as someone once said, so long and thanks for all the fish!
Posted on: 2005/4/27 23:20
ackbarr
ackbarr (Show more)
Posts: 1449
Since: 2002/10/2
#56

Re: What's going on with XOOPS

LazyBadger - I don't see those two viewpoints (features vs. security) as being mutually exclusive. It is completely possible to have both a secure and a good looking system. The basis of this fork is a difference of opinion between Kazu and some of the other developers on the core team on how one security feature should be implemented. Nothing more. Not if the feature should be implemented, but how.

Open Source project forks occur on a daily basis. They usually occur over 2 well-meaning people having strong opinions on how something should be done. Though I cannot cite direct examples, kazu has proven to the rest of the core team that he was not interested in working with the group. Though he was instrumental in getting XOOPS to this point, we as a group felt that he was hurting progress more than he was helping. This does not imply that communications as a whole are flawed in the core team.

As always, security concerns are taken very seriously by the XOOPS core team. However they need to be more than vague insinuations. If there are open holes, they will be dealt with promptly.

Can communication from the development team be improved? Most definitely. Are we trying to improve it? Also most definitely. However, change takes time.

Everyone in this community plays a role in the long term success to XOOPS. In my opinion, if phppp had a problem with decisions made by particular core team members, they should have been addressed to the team member themself first, to the core team as a whole if the issue isn't resolved, then to the community at large.

Catzwolf

Home away from home
Posted on: 2005/4/27 23:24
Catzwolf
Catzwolf (Show more)
Home away from home
Posts: 1392
Since: 2007/9/30
#57

Re: What's going on with XOOPS

Quote:

ackbarr wrote:

kazu has proven to the rest of the core team that he was not interested in working with the group. Though he was instrumental in getting XOOPS to this point, we as a group felt that he was hurting progress more than he was helping. This does not imply that communications as a whole are flawed in the core team.


Actually that is incorrect. Kazu did say he wished to continue as lead developer and Herko told him to 'Get lost'. btw, it was Catzwolf who told me this as he seen the actual 'conversion' between Herko and Kazu via a messenger. This was reason Catzwolf Left Xoops.

tripmon

Module Developer
Posted on: 2005/4/27 23:30
tripmon
tripmon (Show more)
Module Developer
Posts: 462
Since: 2004/2/28
#58

Re: What's going on with XOOPS

Quote:
So... as I understand your point, when someone posts something on e.g. the French community website that could be of interest to other people, he/she should also post it in the French "Geography" forum here on xoops.org? Then a French community representative will see it and translate it.


I am suggesting that ALL potential international news items be submitted to a single forum which does not yet exist.

Let's name the forum XOOPS International News for discussion..

This 'Xoops International News' forum will be composed of:

1) Category A
a)All Local Support Sites (or geographies) will be represented with a single forum which allows native language navigation & posts and provides an rss feed.

2) Category B
a)A forum for each newsletter topic... only ENGLISH posts approved AND translated by 'Local Support Representatives' or by approved .org posters will EVER appear here.
i)WOX
ii)Module Dev News
iii)Core Developments
iv)Whatever the topics need be.

Now, All *potential* international news items are posted to Category A (in 'Xoops International News' forum) directly from the 'Local Support Sites' who can now use the RSS from their own 'Xoops International News->my geography Forum' to populate a XOOPS International News block on their 'Local Support Site' (it will already be in their native lang).

Submitters of international news can now submit their *international news in any language. The SAME single post (with no admin intervention) would provide data on the 'Local Support Sites' while that same post would be translated by the 'Local Support Representative' (if appropriate) and placed in the appropriate Category B forum.

Newsletter creators have each (Category B) forum available so it should be really quick and easy to create the newsletters.

The responsibilty for translating important items is a function of the 'Local Support Representative' and not the organization.

The responsibilty for inputting important items is a function of the 'Local Community' and not the 'Local Support Representative'.

As a long term solution I think this would provide a better, and more unified platform for this type of 'information aggregation'.

I am proposing this framework as a model because it can be applied to any type of language barrier communication. By creating a single 'lead' for each geography, that lead becomes responsible for speaking on his/her geography's behalf. They don't necessarily need strong tech skills.

This model allows the 'lead' (who obviously must have the necessary language skills) to communicate with their users/developers, and bring that information to the organization in a format(language) agreed upon.

The easier we make it for that lead to digest the information within their geography, the more valuable a resource that 'lead' will become to the organization. This is why I'm suggesting a multi-lang approach.

Wether we're talking about core roadmaps, or module news, this framework sandboxes each geography and creates a group of 'leads' who can then interact in a common language.

While this will not immediately fix anything, it may provide a more unified community, and better facilitate bi-directional communication and the flow of ideas.

davidl2

XOOPS is my life!
Posted on: 2005/4/27 23:38
davidl2
davidl2 (Show more)
XOOPS is my life!
Posts: 4843
Since: 2003/5/26
#59

Re: Whats going on with XOOPS

I'm afraid I do agree with a lot of what you are saying Liquid...
Posted on: 2005/4/27 23:52
ackbarr
ackbarr (Show more)
Posts: 1449
Since: 2002/10/2
#60

Re: What's going on with XOOPS

Quote:

wfsection wrote:
This thread does not in one bit surprise me at all.

For the last few months I have sat and watched this unfold into the fiasco that it now is. There are two sets of people here at Xoops, the in crowd and the ones on the outside looking in.

Perhaps, because I am one of the "in-crowd" you refer to, I don't see the same issues you do. I know that each and every person working on the core team, does so out of love and respect for this community, not for direct personal gain.
Quote:

The current core members to not care for anyone else but themselves when it comes to the development of Xoops. Sure, you might actually start listening to people but normally it takes a sledgehammer to hit before the information sinks in.

I personally take offense at this statement. Again, every one of the current core team members cares very strongly for the future of xoops. But this is not an us vs. them argument. Every single person on these forums is a member of the XOOPS community. In nearly every open-source project, the fastest way to implement change jump in with both feet. Submit a patch, help test outstanding patches that are being considered for the core, help support, document, etc. Most of your complaints can be solved by publishing a development roadmap. I am assured by other team members that this is being done as we speak.
Quote:

The Japanese community have been trying to get your attention over matters that they regarded high on the list for the development of XOOPS only to be ignored until someone finally took noticed and realised that there was a massive hole in Xoops, and even then you lot reluctantly took notice. This is not the first time that this has happened and you only need to venture through these and other forums for that evidence.

I would like for you to produce examples of attempted communication of security issues that were ignored. When pressed to submit proper security advisories these types of responses were given:

Quote:

Herko.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
I'm too busy to teach "What is the security" to short skilled programmer.

My Name is GIJOE.

Do you still insist this site is secure?

If Protector is installed correctly, I can't crack regardless of the version of XOOPS.

I thought then, and I still think now that some users were more interested in drawing attention to themselves then fixing the problem. Instead of publicly attacking another member of the community, the proper response would be to:

Submit a patch
Post a bug report
Submit a security advisory

Were any of those steps taken? No. Why not?


Quote:

So why has XOOPS lost so many of the top developers over the last year? Why has so much talent gone from the development of XOOPS and why is nothing being done to prevent this from happening? I could give you a list as long as my arm of the people who have left or are extremely unhappy with the current XOOPS team and the way that XOOPS is being developed. Why do I know? Because I have personally spoken to many XOOPS module developers regarding this matter and message is very clear.

I can't speak for "many of the top developers", but I imagine they left because of arguments like this one. It does nothing to improve XOOPS or the XOOPS community.

Quote:

I think it is about time that people on these forums who rather adhere to arse licking and just agreeing for the sake of agreeing took a few steps back and realised that even though the number of XOOPS users grow, the amount of modules, themes and work to the core is actually going down and there are not the number of raw new talent coming in to take over the place of lost talent.

You do have a point here. We as a community need to do a better job at getting new development talent interested in working on XOOPS. A question that should be asked of all those leaving is why?

Quote:

The sad fact is this, the core doesn't bring people to Xoops, its the modules and themes that people use in a daily context that does. I have said this before and I will say this again, the current thinking of the core is to throw out as much as possible to the outside developers (Hacks, modules, themes etc) and hope that these people carry on the development of what I regard as key core development area's and not down to others. You just have to look at the issues going on now to understand how fucking stupid this current thinking is by the core. The more key development that is sustained by the core thus means that important areas stay up to date, secure and hopefully written to the XOOPS OO standard. This offloading of work WILL backfire in the long run.

No, I disagree with your assessment. The idea was to have a group of people that concentrate on adding features to the core (that are utilized by modules / themes) and other groups of people that concentrated on utilizing these new features in their applications. Again I don't see this as an us vs. them situation. We are all working to improve XOOPS.

Quote:

Apparently the next version of XOOPS totally disregards module developers by the fact that all modules (from what I have read) will be rendered useless due to the new way that modules are dealt with. So what does this mean to everyone? Well with the lack of current module developers around today, who is going to take over the role of converting all the modules that wont work, don't have developers currently working on them and those modules that where originally core modules? Will the core team do this, oh I forgot, they couldn’t be pissed assed actually doing work on them any more. Hell, no wonder Mambo is running riot at the moment with the awards that it’s winning just now.

What are you basing this on? Because we have decided that instead of continuing to tack features on that a fresh look was needed? You make it sound like we don't want to do any work, so here you go developers, you can do it for us. That viewpoint can't be further from the truth. How many modules has Mithrandir released in the last 12 months? I've personally released 3 major versions of xhelp with another one on the way. We all realize that modules and themes will be what draws users in, but to draw module developers and theme developers in, additional features need to be added to the core. Again, this isn't us vs. them.
Quote:

Someone mentioned a fork in this thread; you really don't have a clue how close that actually happened. I can tell you now that many XOOPS module developers (Yes ones that are here right now) actually started putting this plan into action and where going to fork Xoops. Yes, we have a name for this new CMS, we have the development structure in place and we have many Module, theme developers to do the job and are unwilling to put any more time into XOOPS development.

As I said in an earlier response, forks happen daily in the Open Source world. And they usually happen when two people have legitimate differences of opinion. Why do you think there are 15-20 different MAJOR cms's for the PHP programming language alone? Maybe I'm just oblivious, but I am actually suprised at the anger (or maybe frustration) I see in your post. Here I've been happily working away at XOOPS and all your frustration was completely missed.

Quote:

We then decided to wait until the new version came out before we would decide which way to continue. You have to ask yourself this question, WHY??? Ask yourself that question please. Why we developers have decided to do this? Because, we are extremely unhappy with what is going on in Xoops, both with (some) members of the current core and the direction of XOOPS it self.

No 1 group of people dictate XOOPS "policy." I get personally very upset when I read posts like this, because it implies that we on the core team are sitting there with a big rubber stamp that says "No" on it. You know how I got to be on the core team. Because I was willing to help when I saw a need, not just complain about it. It wasn't because I was a member of the "in-crowd." I didn't even know PHP before I started working with XOOPS, but I liked what I saw and learned PHP through working with the XOOPS application.

Quote:

I know I am going to get 'shit' for this post but personally I couldn't care less. I am telling you how it is, the other developers feel but are unwilling to say (except for Phppp) anything in fear of being labelled a traitor to the XOOPS cause.

You are correct, you will get 'shit'. But not because you are a traitor. I'm sorry that you have such animosity toward the "Core Team", but it is not mutual. In fact, XOOPS is large enough that if it doesn't cultivate a more productive community it will wither. Every one of the core team members realizes this and wants to cultivate this community.

Quote:

I left XOOPS because of the crass and bullshit covering the already showing cracks in the XOOPS foundation. Being told how wonderful everything was and how fantastic things are and the self style jubilations and pats on our own back in a job well done, when the people who matter where saying, look something is wrong here and were just ignored.

I'm sorry, I just don't see it. There have been several times in the last year that I've been very close to walking away. But not because of problems with the core team members, rather getting tired of dealing with rants just like this. All sizzle, no steak.

Quote:

When I was with WF-Projects, we asked if one line could be inserted into a java script function last year. To us it seemed more sensible to add one line to a core function rather than have to write more code that wasn't needed. We where told, 'No'.

These are both unfortunate, but I was not involved in either one of these decisions, nor their discussions either for or against.

Quote:

Well as someone once said, so long and thanks for all the fish!

I'm sorry you feel this way, you will be missed.