Re: Whats going on with XOOPS


m0nty wrote:
personally i'd sooner pour water onto the fire and come to a compromise without the need to fight or split.

Sometimes compromise aren't possible anymore. Different paradigms: "Security over obscurity" and "Security over accuracy" haven't any common points.
Future will show, who'll cry first... I, personally, think, that lost of Japan developers is begin of way to die for XOOPS.

Re: Whats going on with XOOPS
  • 2005/5/7 19:43

  • m0nty

  • XOOPS is my life!

  • Posts: 3337

  • Since: 2003/10/24

i dunno how to say this so i'm just gonna say it..

LB yes security is an issue, after reading the thread in question, it looks to me like there is 2 differences of opinion regarding security.. on 1 hand there's 1 issue and the other hand there's another counter issue.. it's completely 2 different opinions.. and to be quite frank with you, do you know enough about security and csrf attacks to pass judgement?? i know i don't and that's for certain, in fact i don't think the majority of people instigating all this fuss do either..

i just don't know enough about the subject to say who is right or wrong, or what implications there could be.. is kazu right or is skalpa right? i don't know that answer either because i don't know enough about the subject.. if you do then fine, if you don't then don't comment on the argument in question.

Re: Whats going on with XOOPS
  • 2005/5/7 20:23

  • damaster

  • Just can't stay away

  • Posts: 556

  • Since: 2003/5/11

I was born in a fishermen village on the atlantic ocean with feet in the water and sun burning my skin.

We needed both to live and at the same time we had to pay attention and protect us from them.

I invite you to spend holidays in my home, i leave you the keys and i go away.

When i come back you deny me saying it's your place.

Think about that?

And tell me what i have to understand !

I like people more than machines or money. But that's me!
Lets do something good and great: Lets do open source!

Re: Whats going on with XOOPS


m0nty wrote:
do you know enough about security and csrf attacks to pass judgement??
I didn't do it, and even didn't try. I only said... well, that I said: "There are two orthogonal positions".. and try to express these positions as I saw and understand this matter. From other side, Onokazu have rights and freedom to go his own way, and other Japan developers, which share same vision have freedom to join to him.

Re: Whats going on with XOOPS
  • 2005/5/8 0:30

  • skalpa

  • Quite a regular

  • Posts: 300

  • Since: 2003/4/16

I have to comment a few things here, because there's been a lot of nonsense in this thread.

But first, some information for people who wouldn't be aware of how things were in the past:
- XOOPS has never been made in a way I'd accept to call collective: Onokazu has always been almost alone
- People who have tried to work with him have left because of "human incompatibilities". If you look at the XOOPS source code, you'll see names you might not really know: buennagel, w4z004, mvandam... Everybody, with no exception, left because they thought working with him was impossible
- He always used to work privately, to release almost finished works. Mithrandir's XOOPS 2.1.0 is the really first early release in Xoops' history.

Now about the SF thread that has been quoted, and comments made to it:
- I don't think getting mad is incompatible with being an open-source developer. If I had to use a single word to describe what I believe being an OS dev means I'd use the word teacher, not hippy.
- If you read carefully, you'll see the real subject of this conflict was not security against anything. Saying we are not concerned about security is completely wrong (some research will show you I've adressed the two security warnings we had in less than 48hrs, each time)
- The difference of POV we had there is the one we have in general: it's a question of methodology. As I said it was not security against something, it was straight orders against explanations and communication ! Onokazu was adding a very restrictive function, I just tried to ask why, and had nothing more in return that "because he said so".
- The answer we were expecting was very simple. And the token system this thread was about has been implemented in Xoops, just after gijoe's post. Actually I have problems reading we're not concerned about security, considering the fact this patch has never been released to the japanese community which is still forced to use the highly vulnerable version.
- This is not a cultural problem. This is not the result of some kind of anti-japanese feeling as I've read it on the japanese site. This issue is purely between individuals. gijoe has shown me once again that when you want to collaborate, language or culture is not such an issue. During the last year, I've talked to several members of the jp community (domifara, gijoe, tom_g3x...) who have real difficulties to express themselves in english. And we managed it. In fact I'd say I've managed to communicate more with those 3 people than I never could with onokazu, who I have only barely spoken to.

So, to people complaining about our way to work: what do you people propose to enhance things ? What do you think is wrong ?
The next major version of XOOPS will be redone from scratch, partly because we believe open-source is a design (that means that a program that has not been designed to be made collectively, cannot be easily enhanced / developed collectively. And this was the most important problem we had to face when taking on the XOOPS code) and because we wanted to change the actual situation. The final version is planned for the end of the year. However, the development roadmap will be published next week, and the first alpha release is expected before the end of the month (which means it will be a very early release, made more than 6 months before the final version). This will also be the first version of XOOPS released with a full technical documentation. As soon as possible, we'll do everything we can to make people participate / take care of specific parts, but it was not possible before (as I say in the roadmap: people cannot collaborate if they have nothing to work on... So at least the earliest works had to be done by a single person).
Considering how long this will take, we decided to release XOOPS 2.2 (and maybe 2.4) with only one objective: the next 2.x releases will be done to ensure community provided patches are added to the core, to show people we care about what they are doing. The 2.x branch is not frozen: everybody coming to us with patches or work will be heard.

So: what else do you want ? But please, tell us what you would like, not only what you dislike. We're trying our best, but it is not an easy task, and complaining is much easier than trying to find solutions.
Not so long ago, I and Mithrandir were no more than anybody participating in this thread: XOOPS users. We tried to help and give some of our time to Xoops. This is how we became "Xoops team members". If you want to do the same, then you're more than welcome. If the only thing you're able to do is criticize, then you can download "Mambo open-source", nobody is going to miss you here.
Actually, you don't imagine how happy this would make us to have someone else to work with. Mith and I are both complaining because we feel alone, because we'd prefer having somebody close to us. But nobody comes...
People are spitting on us, but not a single one is really helping us do all that work our community is expecting.
Somebody who tried to help or find solutions has the right to complain if he is not heard. People who never gave anything do not.


Re: Whats going on with XOOPS
  • 2005/5/8 0:53

  • kaotik

  • Just can't stay away

  • Posts: 861

  • Since: 2004/2/19

I think the incredible work Mithrandir has done, the number of hours he commits to XOOPS are outstanding. He is, without a doubt a driving force pushing XOOPS forward. I'm commenting on him because he is the more visible face on XOOPS core dev. There are also many other members of the core (mod dev's etc) that also deserve praise. Please remember that XOOPS is made up of many, many users and many of these truely apreciate the hardwork being done on the core.

Since you are asking, there is a couple of things I would like:
-Roadmap and features. I would like to know what features are being considered for future releases. First because I would like to know how I could use those features to improve my modules, and second, as a comunnity member I would like to provide some input.
-I would like WOX to restart. I really miss the newsletter.

Re: Whats going on with XOOPS
  • 2005/5/8 0:57

  • JMorris

  • XOOPS is my life!

  • Posts: 2722

  • Since: 2004/4/11

I'd be more concerned with Users that leave xoops. Too much of this nonsense and that is what will happen. Then it won't matter who is a dev and who is a self appointed politician.

You hit the nail on the head!

I haven't thrown my 2 bits in any of these discussions as of late not because I was not interested, but because, I don't know the whole picture. I've read every post in all the open threads, but lack knowlege of what is going on behind the scene.

The overwhelming feeling that has come over me in the past few weeks, when reading all the negativity around here, is that this is the beginning of the end IF things don't change.

I'm not a developer and I don't play polotics. I just call things how I see them. The way I see it, there are people around here stirring crap, people sticking there heads in the sand, people taking their chips and moving on, very few people contributing to a solution, and there is still the end user who just wants help getting their site to work.

The impression that I am developing is that XOOPS is very much at risk and is on very choppy waters. If change does not come soon, XOOPS will face very rough times and may perish. I'm sure I'm not alone in this. Appearances around here have been very negative as of late.

The argument has been made that there are 30,000 members. That's all fine and dandy, but what if just 10% of those members feel like I do? What if they too are looking for backup plans so they can provide solutions for their clients? What if a fork does happen? Somehow I think 30,000 is a bit generous. How many are actually active? How many have already moved on to more calm waters?

I agree that reform is needed, but I lack the knowlege of the whole picture to suggest any how/what/where details. What I will say is that ignoring the problem will not make it go away and stirring up crap will help even less.

Whether anyone likes it or not, tough questions must be asked and addressed. I want XOOPS to be around for a VERY long time, like so many of you. Unfortunately, I lack any skill at php and my work and college takes up all my time; otherwise, I would offer to help more. I will help in any way that time will permit, but I'm afraid that will be little.

I would like to offer this food for thought...

If it were just one promenent developer leaving, I would think nothing of it. Many are leaving, this is a sign that should not be ignored. Entire communities are up in arms and feel ignored. This is a sign that should not be ignored. Long term members are voicing concerns and are growing increasingly frustrated. Again, here's your sign.

Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a problem that needs addressed. Don't lul yourself into a false sense of security. XOOPS very well can perish. Many open source projects that were much larger have. No project is indestructable.

Please do not take my comments as stirring crap. I am a very concerned member voicing an observation. I do not wish to comment any further on this discussion.

Re: Whats going on with XOOPS
  • 2005/5/8 1:02

  • m0nty

  • XOOPS is my life!

  • Posts: 3337

  • Since: 2003/10/24

i can't comment on the roadmap and features, altho there's a lot of them.

regarding WOX newsletters, we are working on that, and i posted earlier regarding this.. i'm not going to repeat the whole post here as it isn't necessary.. but i'm drafting a wox newsletter this weekend, and then it will be discussed and reviewed by the new news/liasons team etc.. the plan is to have a WOX newsletter out ASAP hopefully within the next week, 2 weeks at most.. but definitely soon. we're just deciding exactly what to put in it at the moment as there's a hell of a lot of news to sort through.. i hope this is good news for some of you..

Re: Whats going on with XOOPS
  • 2005/5/8 1:38

  • phppp

  • XOOPS Contributor

  • Posts: 2857

  • Since: 2004/1/25

seems that some communication or management problems DO exist.

The core dev team feels alone while module developers feel not well informed with XOOPS dev/management roadmap.
If XOOPS has a manager or a management team, could it be improved?

After I started this thread, Mith had a chat with me.
Answering his question about why I created a folk "CBB", I told him "CBB" was not intended to be a fork, "C" means "Chinese" and CBB was dedicated to Chinese users (I also explained the reason of dedicating to Chinese users).
More important, the CBB uses the same db prefix/structure, the same dirname with NewBB 2.02 and the CBB could be rolled back at any proper time.
As Mith mentioned above, we had kind of 'agreement' on management of dev.xoops.org and expected some actual action during that weekend, meanwhile he or Herko would contact Marko.
I know ppl are all very busy. However, it is really a pity that Marko made his "final" decision before ppl got time to deal with such issues.

Believe or not, there was a call for dev team at jp.xoops (I do not understand Japanese language) on the same day with this thread.
As for JP "fork" (no matter what you call it), it is not a good sign to XOOPS community.
Skalpa does not think it a culture difference but I do think cultural gap plays a key role here -- perhaps this is another example of culture difference as I am an asian. I remember that Herko and me discussed a bit about cultural gap (mainly on aisan and western) in XOOPS commmunity in the last year.

To me, OK and Skalpa are the two labels of XOOPS.
I do not expect anything but the XOOPS dev core works as a core.

Re: Whats going on with XOOPS

I'm one of the people calling CBB a fork. I didn't call it that at first. I saw the announcement and since it was a Chinese version of newbb I had no interest. My users speak English, French and Spanish. They might speak 100 other languages but on my site I support 3.

I assumed there were character issues that prompted a CBB. Cultural issues escape my logical thinking but if options can be turned on and off then fine and dandy.

When I ask a question about a bug that appeared when 2.0.10 came out I start seeing answers that point to CBB as a solution. Now the other threads about politics and devel issues has finally connected the dots for me. So now I call CBB a fork. Plain and simple. I won't even comment about another fork being mentioned.

From a user's point of view I shouldn't care or even know about so called cultural issues with the devel. From the point of view of a user that tries to help other users, those issues matter a little bit more. From a user that helps other users yet probably has the most unanswered questions himself, it starts to matter a lot. For a module that is likely the most critical outside of the core itself, what happens with devel matters a great deal.

The future of newbb is of great importance to me. However at this stage there isn't a chance in hell that I'm jumping ship to install CBB to fix problems with newbb. I'd rather jump overboard and start over with another CMS. No offence but things are much too volatile to change over to CBB no matter how good the first "fork" is doing so far.

BTW, this is the kind of thread that is best done in a private forum. It scares and confuses some people and is pushing other questions off the page to never be answered.

chao pescaos.


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