Re: Mambo winning on PR-field now
  • 2005/3/29 18:51

  • biglove

  • Not too shy to talk

  • Posts: 157

  • Since: 2004/8/18

Are we all working towards the same goal here or not?

I think we are.

We are all smart people here. I know that and you know that. Smart
people can be some of the most difficult people to work with.

I have nothing to prove here. I know that my methodology works because
I have used it many times. What more, I learned it by copying some of the best marketers on the internet.

I do want to make a statement:

For this project to work, we must realize first that we all have
different experiences and those experiences all suggest different options. All positively intended comments are valuable ragardless of whether they match my viewpoint or not.

If I have not communicated that, I formally apologize.

I happen to be the type of person that wants to understand first what the goal is.

Herko seems to have indicated that he would like to see a 'less geeky image for Xoops.'
To me, that means he would like to the Benefits of XOOPS more clear so that even a marketer can understand why XOOPS is the best choice.

I don't know that I completely understand what he is asking, so I have restated the idea in a way that I think clarifies what he is saying.

If the goal is not clearly understood by all then there will be many
different people all pulling the project in many different directions.

That is not a team effort and thus the results would only be a fraction
of what it could be.

The most difficult part of this task is too get everyone on the same

I would also like to make another suggestion, as we move forward let's
try to assume that everyone involved with this discussion is trying to
help more this project forward.

Maybe if we view these comments in that light, we will see them less as
criticisms and more as different viewpoints.

Your viewpoint does not take away from mine and vice versa. And that is

As I see it, blunt comments, different opinions and a healthy dose of
reality are valuable input even if we don't like it at first. These
different viewpoints may help to expand our idea of what is really
going on. The more we have to dance around everyones ego, the more
difficult this process will be.

I think that marketing and PR are very valuable. To me, they are just
tools to help accomplish goals. So, in my mind, goals must be set
first. To not set goals first is to put the cart before the horse.

In my opinion, the first question should be:
How would we know if XOOPS was being marketed properly?

Ken, I wanted to say publicly that you have shared a lot of valuable
ideas and questions. I can see that you are a good marketer, perhaps
even a genius, and I appreciate your comments because they are
different from mine. Together we are at least twice as wise. Regardless
of who leads this project, you have a lot to contribute.
When I look at our comments in this thread, we seem to both be saying the same thing.

Xoops must have a clear vision.

So what is Xoops's vision?

Ken, the only diffence between you and I is I think that question must be answered first before we perform a SWOT or start planning a marketing strategy. I think that the Vision sets the context for answering all the questions that will come up when we try to implement that vision.

To me, more questions before we agree on a goal ( vision ) will make this problem appear more complex than it has to be.

I value everyone's contribution. I may sometimes say things that seem
harsh; however, I promise, I'm just doing the best I know how. The
second I start doing otherwise is the instant that I stop servicing Xoops
and start serving myself.

p.s. What is the point of sarcasm? Who does that help?

Re: Mambo winning on PR-field now
  • 2005/3/29 20:11

  • chess4us

  • Just popping in

  • Posts: 48

  • Since: 2005/1/26

In my opinion Mambo is winning in the PR-field because they finally understand that development for the sake of development is a never ending cycle. To be fair, I believe they came to this understanding faster then most because of the commercial side of their business (CMS). When your customers tell you that they don’t care about your new features if it doesn’t benefit them, you sort of sit up and take notice.

I have worked with Mambo and XOOPS and I used the support forums for both and I find that both systems a basically equal in features (some better some worse..blah blah blah) however, Mambo does a better job with the finer points for the new users. Example, an iframe, simple to do if you know what your doing can be a nightmare if your new user. How does XOOPS handle this issue, well they tell you to download a module (that may or may not work) or someone gives you a piece of code to insert somewhere. Now how does Mambo handle this issue, well as part of their system they use something called a wrapper, this will do the same thing however, from a new user’s point of view the instructions are straight forward (idiot proof). This is only one example.

The bottom line (my opinion only) is Mambo has started to realize that sometimes the finer points are more important than new versions; they provide them with better customer satisfaction. Both systems have their pluses and minuses but if you review the support forums you usually never see in the Mambo forums, I have a blank screen after installing something or all my modules are gone or I can’t login to my system…pretty scary stuff for a new user and I bet one of the reason we lose a lot of new comers. Don’t get me wrong, Mambo has their problems as well but as I said I think they do a better job for the new user and isn’t that what we are trying to accomplish.

Another issue I find regarding a CMS, let’s face it people use a CMS because it allows them to do something, using a CMS for the sake of a CMS is not the primary purpose for most people. If you check the support forums again on this issue you will find people switch to another system because either the CMS won’t do what they want it to do or some other CMS does a better job at performing the task they wish to provide, so un-finished projects or incomplete projects appear to be the number one reason for users switching to another system.


Re: Mambo winning on PR-field now

Chess, very usefull feedback, thanks.
Biglove, you are right about that we will first need to have some information before we can do the complete SWOT analysis. I started preparing it, and Ken and I are in the process of gathering the necessary information from XOOPS management, including your questions.

In my point of view we do all want the same, and more and more people are getting interested in contributing to this project, so I have good hope on us making the project a success.
Since there are so many people who are in some way contributing to the project by the means of using the forum, we run the chance of having an overload of information and questions, especially towards XOOPS management.

I have seen many similar and duplicate questions in this topic. If we want to keep it organized a bit I suggest we start communicating more effectively, by which I mean: one or two persons from the project team communicate with XOOPS management on this topic, so they can focus more on strategic decisions. The project team will handle the gathering and filtering of information.

Untill the project team will have their own home on this site, we can keep the discussion in this topic. That way it will be easier to track new posts.

I hope you agree on this. If not, please give me some feedback.

Best wishes,


Re: Mambo winning on PR-field now
  • 2005/3/29 22:12

  • kenmcd

  • Just popping in

  • Posts: 63

  • Since: 2004/6/8 1

Is search engine marketing a marketing plan? No
Is search engine marketing a part of a marketing plan? Yes.
Is search engine marketing a replacement for PR? No.

A complete marketing plan encompasses multiple marketing communications channels.
Examples of channels:
- print publications
- online publications
- direct mail
- online direct mail (email)
- radio & TV
- industry analyst publications, online and offline
- and . . . search engine marketing

This is not a complete list.

Another channels example, how people receive news:
- TV (CBS or ABC or CNN or . . .)
- newspapers (local, national, regional, industry)
- magazines (Newsweek, Time, industry specific)
- online news site or portal
- RSS feed
- etc., etc.
I will miss a lot potential customers/users if I only send my news to online news sites.

Utilizing only one channel restricts the audience reach.
For maximum effect we use as many channels as possible.
Certain channels are better for communicating with different target markets.
If my goal is to attract more non-geeks, search engine marketing would not be my first choice.
For obvious reasons - they may not be online, they may not use search online.

Advantages of PR?
- Easier to target specific audiences
- Reach audiences available no other way
- Implied third-party endorsement
- blah, blah, blah, etc.

As I said in an earlier post, all channels broadcasting the same messages is powerful.
More powerful than one channel.
More powerful than mixed messages.
More powerful than a shotgun approach.
Yes, the shotgun approach will produce results.
Yes, any marketing is better than no marketing.
(well almost, you can actually hurt yourself)

Would search engine marketing be a useful addition to the XOOPS marketing mix? Definitely
Should search engine marketing be coordinated with an overall marketing plan? Yes.

I welcome any offers to help the Marketing & Communications Team effort.
Creating a new thread with a long persuasion text smacks of "I want to show how
much smarter I am", not I want to join the team and the discussion here.
Starting a new thread to solicit opinion on target markets is not helpful.
A debate on what comprises a marketing plan is not something I wish to pursue.

A knowledgeable search engine marketing person would be a valuable addition to the team.
I would welcome your participation in that capacity.

Re: Mambo winning on PR-field now
  • 2005/3/29 22:45

  • biglove

  • Not too shy to talk

  • Posts: 157

  • Since: 2004/8/18

I look forward to working with the group. And also, thank you for refreshing my memory about all the different marketing channels.

May I suggest that, after we have come up with a Marketing Plan, the idea be tested online first.

Testing ideas on the internet before spending money on Print and other media is just smart business to me. Online testing is cheap and it allows you to scrap the inneffective ideas before they tap our budget.

The market always tells me the right answer. Often, this answer is completely different than what I thought it would be. But such is life, we must all be flow like water.

I prefer to test cheap and then run with what seems to work.
If it works online, then it usually works offline as well.

Anyway, let me know how I can help.

Who is going to be in charge of soliciting money to pay for this media?

I am most definately, Not It. ;)

Re: Mambo winning on PR-field now
  • 2005/3/31 1:25

  • kenmcd

  • Just popping in

  • Posts: 63

  • Since: 2004/6/8 1

Budget? You're funny!
Nothing we are discussing right now requires anything but hard work.
Article coverage obtained via PR is free.
The cost of PR is hiring the experts.
I assume you were thinking of advertising, not PR.

The only thing which could cost is if someone wants to have
the XOOPS flyer we are discussing professionally printed.

Re: Search Engine Marketing
What is your process?
My understanding is the first steps are to create a key word/phrase list,
and then run a ranking report to determine the current status.
Please advise.

Key words/phrases: general XOOPS related terms now, when we have some target markets
we will be adding key phrases specific to those target markets.

We will need a home
Temporary or permanent is fine.
Martijn - you have a domain name we could use.
Anyone have some web space we could use temporarily?
A subweb, anything would be fine.
URL name doesn't matter.
Only requirement is we can install XOOPS with a custom template and theme.
And we have direct access to be able to make changes.
The Marketing Project could also serve as a XOOPS showcase site.
And be a landing place for incoming marketing generated inquires.

Marketing background info
Some useful links:

How Marketing Plans Work

How Market Research Works

Everyone on the team, current and potential, should be familiar with these.

SWOT Analysis
I would not work on the report itself until we have confirmation of the full
support of the board, and we have established specific marketing goals.
Otherwise you could be doing a lot of work for nothing.

Collecting background information on the market and competitors
(as you have been doing) is probably the best for now.

What the XOOPS Marketing Project could be when it grows-up
Something to aspire to . . .
OpenOffice has a well developed and substantial marketing project.
Obviously this project was developed over time.

A quote from a presentation about the OOo Strategic Marketing Plan:
"The main challenge facing the OpenOffice.org community is not
a technical one - it is a marketing one."

This applies to XOOPS as well.

OpenOffice Strategic Marketing Plan 2010 (home page)

Example comprehensive marketing plan for an open source project.
OpenOffice.org Strategic Marketing Plan 2010 - draft (58 pages, 491KB PDF)
Notice that ALL of the marketing plan flows from the goals.

Interesting note: They got article coverage about their Marketing Project. (3 articles)
Apparently an open source project having real marketing is newsworthy.
Open source having marketing is news.
Think about that.
It is so unusual for open source to have marketing that it is news.

Let's be unusual.

Target Markets
What would be better for the XOOPS project?
- 5,000 new users who contribute nothing?
- 3 new users who contribute much needed modules?

Who should we target to most benefit the XOOPS project?

Who should we target to meet the stated goals of the XOOPS Foundation?

The goals of the XOOPS Marketing Project should be based on the answers to these questions.



Re: Mambo winning on PR-field now
  • 2005/3/31 5:31

  • gruessle

  • Friend of XOOPS

  • Posts: 348

  • Since: 2003/9/20

I say
- 5,000 new users who contribute nothing!

These will follow:
- 30 new users who contribute much needed modules will follow

See if you have 5000 users who are new to this you will have a few which will drop a bug or two.

But if you have 3 programmers and the best modules you still don't have any users.

Re: Mambo winning on PR-field now

I started on the XOOPS part of benchmarking, general information to begin with. I will hold my horses on the SWOT analysis untill you receive the main directions from XOOPS management.


Re: Mambo winning on PR-field now
  • 2005/3/31 6:15

  • kenmcd

  • Just popping in

  • Posts: 63

  • Since: 2004/6/8 1


gruessle wrote:
I say
- 5,000 new users who contribute nothing!

These will follow:
- 30 new users who contribute much needed modules will follow

See if you have 5000 users who are new to this you will have a few which will drop a bug or two.

But if you have 3 programmers and the best modules you still don't have any users.

How is it that "users who contribute nothing" are somehow magically transformed
into 30 new users who contribute modules?

Instead of wasting time and effort to acquire users of unknown benefit to the project,
targeting the right user is far more efficient. And proven far more successful.

That is why it is called targeted marketing.
That is why it is used by successful companies.
That is why it is taught in business school.

Aren't you the one who offered to lead this project, but "you didn't have the time?"
The position is available if you want it.

I found your first post obnoxious and arrogant.
Almost responded then, decided not to.

If you have anything useful to contribute, please chime in.
If all you want to do is continue to attempt to prove how smart you are,
or how obnoxious you can be, or just be a spoiler, please go away.

Re: Mambo winning on PR-field now

I have intentionally kept a little quiet in this because although I have a B.Sc. in sales and marketing of technical products, I have always found marketing to be a tough one to quantify without resorting to gut feelings and intuition.

I also wanted to see, what you could come up with of ideas before "putting the foot down" as it will always be, when an official member gives his opinion.

One of the fuzzy things is what you want exactly from the official XOOPS team, Ken. Am I right in thinking that you want something comparable to pages 3 to 5 of the OpenOffice marketing plan to build on?

To give my initial views:
1) Search engines are fine, and getting more people visit this site would be good - however, we HAVE many users, we HAVE many visitors. What I want is that when someone does get to this site, relevant information is available and easy to find.

2) Having many users is not a goal in itself. I am not doing all this work in order to satisfy someone in Texas, who learn about XOOPS next week. I am doing it for YOU. You, who already know about XOOPS and use it on your site. I'm doing it for you, who are thinking about trading XOOPS for another CMS (hopefully making you change your mind). I'm doing it for myself, because it will reflect well on me to be part of a respected project.

I want reviewers and journalists to be able to review XOOPS and honestly say that it is a good product that they can recommend.

We are up against tough competition. There are commercial systems such as MS SharePoint, Sitecore and others. There are open source systems such as Xaraya, PostNuke, Mambo and OpenSourceCMS. What do we have that they don't have? Two strengths, I do think we can use: Easy to setup, easy to trial (especially relevant in competition with the commercial systems) and focus on security (relevant in competition with the other OS PHP systems)

My personal opinion is that we should aim at increasing the market share in the area of small and medium enterprises that need interaction on their websites (not just static information pages), have multiple roles in managing the content (e.g. providers, editors and approvers) and have IT responsible employees.

The last one perhaps needs a little explanation: XOOPS does not have a lot of consultants connected to the project, we cannot guarantee support and we cannot (yet) guarantee quality of 3rd party modules etc. Therefore XOOPS is not a viable solution, in my eyes, for a small company without IT personnel who can learn the system and provide internal support.
A more long term goal could very well be that it should be usable by anyone, regardless of IT knowledge, but XOOPS as of today is not like that, I think, and that is what we should focus on: How XOOPS is right now.


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