81
Chainsaw
Re: Double Standards
  • 2005/2/15 2:10

  • Chainsaw

  • Quite a regular

  • Posts: 304

  • Since: 2003/9/28


Quote:

dlh wrote:
Well someone could pay you to modify/enhance the module. It is my understanding that you (or the payer) are not under any obligation to release that modification to the community.

However, if the mod was also released then it becomes GPL...and thus free for others to modify and enhance. That's is the spirit of open source development IMHO. Free speech not free beer...

From GNU.org FAQ

Quote:

Does the GPL allow me to develop a modified version under a nondisclosure agreement?
Yes. For instance, you can accept a contract to develop changes and agree not to release your changes until the client says ok. This is permitted because in this case no GPL-covered code is being distributed under an NDA.

You can also release your changes to the client under the GPL, but agree not to release them to anyone else unless the client says ok. In this case, too, no GPL-covered code is being distributed under an NDA, or under any additional restrictions.

The GPL would give the client the right to redistribute your version. In this scenario, the client will probably choose not to exercise that right, but does have the right.


Quote:

However, there are folks (like me) who don't want to code in that depth - so I'm happy to pay for my development and release it back so that others can build on my contributions in that way.

Best of both world. I get to spend my department's budget on OSS.

Quote:

I'm glad this discussion has turned productive....

AMEN!

82
brash
Re: Double Standards
  • 2005/2/15 4:09

  • brash

  • Friend of XOOPS

  • Posts: 2206

  • Since: 2003/4/10


Thank you to Scott and Herve for inserting some perspective and sense into this thread. I had unfortunately allowed myself to descend into a petty meaningless argument from which there was never going to be a victor. Thanks for the slap back into reality .

@Scott

Thanks for the advise regarding getting a professional legal opinion on this, but as this would cost me more than a weeks wage just to get an opinion from a decent IP lawyer here in Aus (and there are plenty of opinions already) I don't see the real value in it. Especially with bills to pay and a family to support.

If anyone chooses to actually proceed legal action against me for my involvement with AMS (which is their choice) then all it will ultimately result in is AMS becoming a fully private developed module to which the general XOOPS community have no access to. The only winner in a situation like this would be the lawyers.

I am thinking that as of the next release of AMS I might word my News post to make a clear distinction between a donation and an early access fee, even though I don't see their being that much of a distinction in this case. From here, what the "early access fee" will be paying for is something like support, and access to restricted sections of my website. This would bring the AMS model more into line with what Catz suggested. As this would effectively be paying for a service there would be obligations to go with it on my part, which might effect cost. I'll have to have a good think about it.

Hopefully if nothing else this thread has shown how one piece of text (the GPL) can produce so many different interpretations. I think Scott was on the right track when he said that people only see what they want to see in the GPL. I personally don't think anyone is as blinded as that, but people certainly do only search for passages that support their argument.

83
MorelyDotes
Re: Double Standards

Quote:
Where I draw the line though is with security fixes. I am a adamantly opposed to requiring a donation to fix security holes.


One must assume that you avoid Microsoft products like the plague which they are, then?

There are rumours of legislation which may be proposed in both the USA and Europe which will make charging for access to security patches a criminal offense. I would strongly support such laws. Calling it a "donation" won't change the situation, and prosecutors always go for the low-hanging fruit.

However, for anything else, giving extra care or earlier access to those who have donated is not only perfectly acceptable, it's simple courtesy. One should thank those who have helped one, and that's an obvious way to do it.

84
tjnemez
Re: Double Standards
  • 2005/2/18 20:17

  • tjnemez

  • Home away from home

  • Posts: 1594

  • Since: 2003/9/21


Quote:
However, for anything else, giving extra care or earlier access to those who have donated is not only perfectly acceptable, it's simple courtesy. One should thank those who have helped one, and that's an obvious way to do it.


one may also assume that it is an obvious way for one to prey on our hedonistic nature.

85
Speed
Re: Double Standards
  • 2005/2/18 20:27

  • Speed

  • Quite a regular

  • Posts: 310

  • Since: 2004/5/18


Quote:
One must assume that you avoid Microsoft products like the plague which they are, then?


I do use MS products. I do use Linux. I do use open and closed source software depending on which best meets the requirements for the task at hand. I'm not sure what you are implying or trying to say except that you dislike MS and felt the need to share that with the group.... I dislike them too but I usually try to disparage them with facts, not fiction.

MS products have their share of bugs. MS doesn't drop all support for a previous version when a new one is released but rather they maintain multiple code bases. MS doesn't charge for security updates if you have a legal copy their software in the first place and for most of the company's history (they're starting to change now) they have provided security updates to all users regardless of whether they owned a legal copy of the software being patched.

It's strange for me to be in the role of MS apologist but your sniping was mis-aimed in this case. I feel icky now.... Thanks a lot.

Now back to the discussion at hand.

86
MorelyDotes
Re: Double Standards

Quote:

It's strange for me to be in the role of MS apologist but your sniping was mis-aimed in this case. I feel icky now.... Thanks a lot.


When I wrote that, I had open on the laptop next to me the Windows Update page for XP Pro. It states rather emphatically that "Windows XP Support on Windows Update sill soon require XP SP1 or later."

Ever heard of Windows Product Activation? As a method of "punishing" those who have bypassed the proper method of obtaining Windows, Microsoft has stated that it is their intention to withold updates (including security updates) from people who have not applied SP1. It is well-known that SP1 (and later service packs) tighten the WPA down and de-activate pirated copies of XP. The end result is that the percentage of unpatched copies of XP will increase, perhaps dramatically, and thus increase the number of malware-infested machines spewing forth yet more malware which we who are I.T. professionals have to deal with.

So, no, my "sniping" was not mis-aimed, it's perfectly accurate.

Of course, the lack of security even in fully-patched Windows is part of the reason I am fully employed, so at best, I have mixed feelings about it. Still, I'd rather have to deal more with user education (also part of my job) and less with frantic scrambles to secure against the latest exploit.

But back to the point of this whole thread: I don't personally use AMS, or (knowingly) any other module that has a commercial or semi-commercial basis - yet. But the GPL is very clear on this: One certainly may create a derivative work and charge for distribution, packaging, and support, so long as source code is provided. Furthermore, as soon as I convince $DAY_JOB's VP that FOSS can provide the level of support we need for our intranet, I will be commissioning a module which will be released under the GPL, and I have every expectation that the authors will charge for support. I expect it and I encourage it.

If one can support one's own needs without paying Mith, or Red Hat, or Microsoft, or whomever, then bully! But if not, one has no right to demand cost-free support if it isn't offered. Of course, with closed-source software, you're pretty well screwed if the publisher decides that your problem isn't important (or sufficiently profitable) enough to merit attention.

And that's the bottom line.

87
texxs
Re: Double Standards, incubators & donation releases
  • 2005/2/26 16:36

  • texxs

  • Just popping in

  • Posts: 10

  • Since: 2005/2/14


That's obviously a sale, not a donation. Donations are voluntary! You get the product wether you donate or not. If you can't get the product w/out paying that is a sale not a donation. Why isn't that painfully obvious to everyone?

Is it like a WMD thing? Where you just lie to yourself so that you can do bad things guilt free? Or do people honestly not know what donation means?

Also there are so many ways in the GPL to to charge money that there is absolutley no reason to decieve people.

Quote from GPL section 1, paragraph 2:
"You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy . . ."

Any many more ways as well. No reason to be dishonest about this yet so many people are. I just don't understand . . .

88
m0nty
Re: Double Standards
  • 2005/2/26 16:51

  • m0nty

  • XOOPS is my life!

  • Posts: 3337

  • Since: 2003/10/24


ok so we're back onto this subject again..

@Texx, he isn't deceiving, and i woulds still consider it to be a donation simply because of the 1 Fact you seemed to overlook and that fact being 'Donator release of ams 2.4)' which means if you donated to the project, you can download the module now.. if you DID NOT donate you will have to wait a month to get it without donating..

if it was a 'sale' then the option to download the module a month later would not be there without having to pay for it.. which is simply not the case!! so nobody is being dishonest or deceiving anybody!!

89
Mikhail
Re: Double Standards
  • 2005/4/27 22:08

  • Mikhail

  • Just can't stay away

  • Posts: 412

  • Since: 2003/1/19


Quote:

0. This License applies to any program or other work which contains a notice placed by the copyright holder saying it may be distributed under the terms of this General Public License. The "Program", below, refers to any such program or work, and a "work based on the Program" means either the Program or any derivative work under copyright law: that is to say, a work containing the Program or a portion of it, either verbatim or with modifications and/or translated into another language. (Hereinafter, translation is included without limitation in the term "modification".)

6. Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the Program subject to these terms and conditions. You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein. You are not responsible for enforcing compliance by third parties to this License.




A simple question for translators and developers: why not include something like "$modversion['author_translation'] = "Mr. Mambo Jambo";" in all "modinfo.php" files???


Why not?



[]s

mikhail

90
ackbarr
Re: Double Standards

mikhail - that is a good idea, and several modules, WF-Sections, SmartFAQ, among others include translator credits. Others put it in the documentation files, the README, for example.
One possible problem with this proposal though is that translations are typically created after the module is released, so the module developer wouldn't know who will be translating the module when writing the xoops_version.php file. Some of the larger modules have people who have volunteered to translate the module as each new release is available, and in those projects it would make the most sense to include them in the credits.

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