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#1 Posted on: 2011/8/3 16:41 Change of XOOPS Project Structure? Let's discuss it
DJ and few X3 developers are having a vote among themselves to change the structure of XOOPS Project, unfortunately without the participation of the XOOPS community.

I told them that while they can vote and decide about the internal structure of the X3 Team, their mailing list is not the right channel for making decisions about the XOOPS Project structure, because they don't have the authority for it. It would equal to hijacking the XOOPS Project.

It would also place a total control over the project in hands of one person only (the Development Team Leader), which as we know from the our past, was never a good idea.

The idea of merging all the current teams into one and placing them under control of the Dev Team Leader kills the idea of team stewardship and creates a kind of "dictatorship". After all, who will vote to remove the Team Leader if he doesn't deliver on his objectives, if he is the one who makes all decisions? We had this before and it damaged XOOPS.

As every project/organization, we need "checks and balances". We've created a XOOPS Council with no overall leader for a reason, so decisions are made by the Council team, and not by a single person. Recently we had an incident where it actually worked very well and proved that the concept works and is essential.

The issues that I believe are not appropriate for the X3 Team to make decisions, and are actually dangerous for the XOOPS Project, are highlighted in red.

This is the proposal from DJ:

Quote:
1 Management and collaboration:
(1) Create a XE development-oriented team that is small, active and agile. The team will act as the only management and representative unit for the project.
Each member must be active and concentrate on his own role.
(2) Close the inactive Council and various existent "official" teams, merge active members into the single team defined in 1.(1).
XOOPS is too small to afford communications and arguments between so many units.
(3) Dev Lead acts as leader for the single team.
(4) In the future, once it is necessary, XOOPS can expands it teams and build better management architecture.


2 Development with agile methodology
(1) Keep XE as XOOPS next generation, a web application platform. Every member in the single team should focus on XE tasks, defined in backlog if SCRUM is used.
After Alpha3 release, a product feature list will be created and tracked on time. Proper project management tools will be used, an online one is desired (github issue tracker).
(2) Strictly keep X2 development on maintenance: bugfixes and security improvements. No new feature will be added, no changes in behavior will be allowed.
(3) XE stable release is suggested in end November and X2 maintenance support will be dropped off at the same time.

3 Proposed team members according to activity on contribution:
(1) D.J., voltan, julionc, marco, krisfr, mamba, ezsky, dongbeta; insraq is optional in case he has adequate time.
(2) The members are to be adjusted from time to time in case we have more contributors active on XE development.

4 Addition:
(1) mamba stays in the team and concentrate on his role on marketing as defined in the past. Documentation would be good additional.
(2) Any Foundation is welcome to help and support the project, but none of them will control or own the project, and the project has no official foundation until the project grows big enough.

I would like to invite the community to express their views. It's important that the community is involved in any decisions like this, because XOOPS is an Open Source project driven by the XOOPS community.

P.S. I hope, this message will not be censored or removed, and I won't be banned as a moderator here, just because I had a different view on that

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#2 Posted on: 2011/8/3 21:08 Re: Change of XOOPS Project Structure? Let's discuss it
So far the responses from active contributors:

Existent Council members:
krisfr: yes
phppp: yes
mamba: no
trabis: inactive for a while
rune: inactive for a while

Active contributors who responded:
julionc: yes
marco: yes
voltan: yes
ezsky: yes
Ivan Kosak: yes
dongbeta: yes
Mariane Antoun: yes


In total:
9 Yes
1 No from mamba




BTW:
Xoops Engine development has been paused temporarily due to the endless arguments recently and our release schedule will be postponed accordingly.

mamba, I wish you start the post for constructive discussions, not for political arguments, so it would be great if you remove your misleading words and let people read and respond by themselves. The XOOPS project has been suffered from non-technical arguments for years. It is the last chance for us to concentrate on development, otherwise, everything will be gone.

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phppp
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#3 Posted on: 2011/8/3 21:39 Re: Change of XOOPS Project Structure? Let's discuss it
Mamba, what do you want to do ?

During DJ developing Xoops Engine, you keep disturbing DJ and want DJ focus on Xoops 2.x EVERY DAY. We all know there is an legacy engine inside Xoops Engine to support 2.x modules, but you mean to say DJ will dump Xoops 2.x users. You confuse "Xoops 2.x" and "Xoops 2.x users" on purpose to delay Xoops Engine development.

Finally, you win. DJ agree he will focus on Xoops 2.x which most of developers disagreed. Unexpectedly, You started to say DJ should focus on Xoops Engine.

We were confused by your actions and don't know what to do. Then, DJ want get a agreement to resume Xoops Engine development.

Then, you start to blame DJ by some history things. Even other members point these things is made by you.

Now, the Xoops Engine development is stopped by mamba.

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#4 Posted on: 2011/8/4 0:10 Re: Change of XOOPS Project Structure? Let's discuss it
Ok lets look at this with common sense. I am by no means a lawyer but my experience with legal entities makes this a pretty simple deal...

First of all Xoops as an entity, it has been mentioned that it is a community project. As a community project there is a xoops council. If it is indeed a community project then this board should be voted on by the community as a whole.

If there are inactive members then there should be a method of replacing them because the council does no good if there are missing members. Should be a pretty straight forward outline of what inactive actually means and what to do with inactive members. There should also be a method of disciplining members that act outside the benefits of the over all project up to and to include possibly removing from the board or potentially banning from the project altogether.

Also as a community entity there is a protocol to follow for differences and to make decisions. I do recall seeing some sort of rules and such for the xoop council at some point. Somehow I think the current thread of finger pointing, name calling (indirectly), accusations and all is not in the protocol. I could be wrong but I am thinking the protocol would be much more professional than the threads have become.

The thread sounds more like two gorillas beating their chests over a bunch of rotten bananas.

Personally I think DJ has acted immaturely and far from professional, sounds more like a spoiled rotten child that has had his ego bruised. But then again I think Mamba has gone way over the line as well. More like the parent that doesn't know what to say to their misbehaving teen so just makes up crap and flings stuff out there hoping something sticks. In other words both parties are wrong.

Due to an email by Mamba I have to question if Xoops Engine really is a Xoops project or should be considered a separate project all together. As far as I was aware this Xoops project was a community project that no one actually owned. So yes then the community does deserve a say in it. So if Xoops is a community project then a choice such as if X2 should be further developed beyond just bug fixes should be given to the community to decide. Along with any and all decisions related to anything else xoops related.


But I will quote this from the email...

Quote:

Look, I would be the last one to try to slow X3 progress :) ==> (see attachment) .

And check out:

http://xoopz.org
http://xoopz.com
http://xoopz.net

And I am also clearly frustrated with the lack of progress and constant delays, and empty promises.

But while I would like to see X3 ASAP, I believe that our users deserve fixing bugs on X2 and a solid migration to X3, whatever it would be. They invested their trust in XOOPS, many of them have been for years, and they deserve our effort to keep them happy. For me our users come first, before even me.

I don't know how many times to we have to present this chart to make you understand that we are losing users


who are sick and tired of waiting for X3. So at least we need to keep them happy with X2 by fixing bugs in the X2 Core as well as the modules. Or otherwise, once we have X3 there will be nobody left to enjoy it.

There are tons of Open Source projects that failed, because they were perceived that they don't care about their users and the people left to other projects. We have tons of people who already left for Joomla, Drupal, and WP. How many more have to leave to make us all understand it?

Michael


The attachment to this is a copy of a business agreement that shows that Mamba and DJ started a company called Xoopz LLC as a commercial venture to develop and promote Xoop Engine on Jan 14, 2011. There was mention of Mamba owning 49% and Dj owning 51%. There was mention of Mamba putting in $4900 and DJ $5100. By the wording of that document Xoopz is an entity totally separate from Xoops and intended to eventually replace xoops. To me this sounds like a commercial venture that you two put into and expect the community to put their "blood and tears" into but you two will be the sole receivers of any profits made by this. As a commercial venture Xoops Engine is NOT a community venture and does not belong being discussed openly by the community. Also the wording only talks about major financial decisions have to be made equal. Outside that it gives DJ a controlling 51% interest which means in most legal circles that Dj should control all decisions that are NOT financial in nature. So in other words DJ is the ONLY one that has ANY right to decide anything operationally with rights to Xoops Engine.

Xoops Engine is a commercial venture entered into by Dj and Mamba and has no business being fronted as a community based venture. It also means the community has no say about what happens with Xoops Engine. Only Xoops CMS. It also means that Mamba really has no grounds for making any comments what so ever about Xoops Engine since DJ holds the controlling interest in non financial matters. Otherwise why would he have 51% of the company.

By declaring a commercial venture and as eventually replacing xoops it sounds like xoopz LLC was created by Dj and Mamba as a way to "hijack" the xoops project for their own personal gain as a commercial venture. (This is all spelled out in the document disclosed by Mamba in the dev mail list signed by both Mamba and DJ)


I do respect what Mamba and DJ have accomplished but the way the crap is slinging around and with the document disclosed by mamba it looks more like the race car that the wheels are about to fall off of. Yes I am ticked off now too.. And yes this is my last message on this topic. It is time for me to start looking at other "solutions" and decide what my best course is.

Rodney

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redheadedrod
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#5 Posted on: 2011/8/4 0:15 Re: Change of XOOPS Project Structure? Let's discuss it
I had a really long thing written here, but it's far too late in my day to think coherently on all the points I wanted to make.

It seems to me that XE wants to consolidate its resources and run forward and get to a release-ready state. It also seems that XE sees no benefit from the XOOPS Council or the XOOPS Foundation which represent a limited governance and legal entity.

If this is truly the case, I believe that it would be best for XE to resign from XC/XF, take full advantage of the GPL, and fork the project. Those who wish to work on XE may do so unimpeded, and it is their right to do so.

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iunderwood
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#6 Posted on: 2011/8/4 0:19 Re: Change of XOOPS Project Structure? Let's discuss it
Quote:

iunderwood wrote:
I had a really long thing written here, but it's far too late in my day to think coherently on all the points I wanted to make.

It seems to me that XE wants to consolidate its resources and run forward and get to a release-ready state. It also seems that XE sees no benefit from the XOOPS Council or the XOOPS Foundation which represent a limited governance and legal entity.

If this is truly the case, I believe that it would be best for XE to resign from XC/XF, take full advantage of the GPL, and fork the project. Those who wish to work on XE may do so unimpeded, and it is their right to do so.


I said I wasn't going to say more but... Since XE was created as a commercial venture I don't believe it has any business being here in the first place...

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redheadedrod
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#7 Posted on: 2011/8/4 1:13 Re: Change of XOOPS Project Structure? Let's discuss it
Xoops Engine is not created as commercial, it is the successor of XOOPS, an GPL open source project.

In terms of the "business" mamba talked about, I replied

Quote:

Yes you created your Foundation to control the project and then promised to do business with me.
After I found out you were so greedy then stopped personal collaboration with you, you have tried to ask me a couple of time to talk about "our business".
Doing business on an open source project is good both to people who run the business and to the project, however I feel so lucky to find what you are and stop collaboration with you.

You have been insisting on control the project with your foundation to wait chance for your business. I do hope you can find better ways for your business, not controlling the project.


On one hand, although the document does not hurt anyone, however you put yourself so low by disclosing personal document without permission. How do you expect collaboration with other people in the future?

On the other hand, the document you provided may help people understand better your behaviors recently: insist on legacy code while stay away from XE development but try to find chance to blame.

In terms of open source powered business, it it too early to talk about before the project succeeds, but as I said, doing win-win business in a proper way on open source projects will help open source contributors and the open source projects themselves. Right last night a developer suggested Crowdsourcing model for our future potential model (sorry I can only disclose his name if he allows to).
I also mentioned that I would share a big news, it is definitely a good example of XOOPS powered benefits to developers, to their employers and to the project.
And look at drupal, WP, joomla, business upon open source really help projects and developers, but must be in right way. We look forward to seeing the project successful then benefits everyone.



The truth is that mamba came to me promising to do business together and we assigned agreement.
However I declined later after I found him so greedy.

The Xoops Engine is GPL based and it is never meant to be commercialized. Although I did not know how was mamba's idea in his mind.

Xoops Engine is developed by open source contributors, and it is under GPL license. There could be commercial business based on it, just like how Drupal, joomla, WP did, just like many XOOPS powered studios and groups that provide commercial support, but the Xoops Engine itself is GPL'ed and will never be commercialized.


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phppp
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#8 Posted on: 2011/8/4 1:27 Re: Change of XOOPS Project Structure? Let's discuss it
Quote:

iunderwood wrote:
I had a really long thing written here, but it's far too late in my day to think coherently on all the points I wanted to make.

It seems to me that XE wants to consolidate its resources and run forward and get to a release-ready state. It also seems that XE sees no benefit from the XOOPS Council or the XOOPS Foundation which represent a limited governance and legal entity.

If this is truly the case, I believe that it would be best for XE to resign from XC/XF, take full advantage of the GPL, and fork the project. Those who wish to work on XE may do so unimpeded, and it is their right to do so.


Firstly, Xoops Engine is the code name of X3 and it has been redesigned from ground. Every active contributors have agreed that Xoops Engine is the next major version of XOOPS,
including mamba himself.

However, after I declined mamba's business idea, he stepped away from XE development and insisted on legacy code while made troubles to XE and blame XE development.

Thus I suggested that we all went back to X2 code base and restart XOOPS development from X2 and let Xoops Engine go as a separate project if anyone has interest.

Again, after a voting, every active contributors agreed that we should continue XE development and drop off legacy code by end of this year.

Then after we started XE schedule, mamba challenged support for legacy, again.

It is so frustrating and the development is not able to continue.
Thus I raised the proposal and let the community to make the decision.

All the historical discussions can be found in our development mailing list and it could be provided in case necessary.


Now it is your time to make the decision.



My suggestion 3 days ago:
Quote:

D. J. to xoopsdev
show details Aug 1 (3 days ago)
Dear all,

I talked with mamba about this email and he suggested to wait for a while.
However, I don't think it would make any difference to wait.

Here it is.
========

Due to the endless arguments and confusions on XOOPS development direction, as well as the concerns from people who are still deeply using and developing XOOPS 2.* modules, I think the cost is way too expensive to maintain both the XOOPS 2.* which is a CMS and the "Xoops Engine" which is targeting at a web application platform.
The arguments have been on the code base, the direction of the system, the BC for modules, and so on. The "XE" has been open for development for more than one year, but most of the XOOPS contributors insist on XOOPS2.* feature and module development. Meanwhile the development resource on "Xoops Engine" is too much limited and many contributors just wait and question, too many non-technical arguments makes the Xoops Engine developers frustrated, including me.

We have to face the fact of the XOOPS project: it is a purely community-based CMS, we can not expect too much beyond its grassroots nature.

The project has suffered a lot since many years ago, the arguments between project manager and dev lead resulting in departure of its founder, the critical compatibility issues resulting in departure of a branch dev lead, the arguments between project manager and dev lead resulting in both project manager and dev lead. Unfortunately we are seeing that the history is repeating itself.

On technical side, we have to learn the lessons from XOOPS 2.2 quality and compatibility issues and XooSphere rewriting failure; on team collaboration side, we have to stop the arguments on political correctness.

Thus, to end the endless arguments and confusion, I would suggest to make our final decision: 1. resume XOOPS project on X2 code base and do improvements on a step by step base; 2. drop off "Xoops Engine" code base and let it go.
In this way, we can re-unify XOOPS forces and make a possible success for XOOPS as a CMS by improving it gradually.

I believe we all have enthusiasm but are getting frustrated.
Let's be mutual and practical and make the last efforts before it is too late.

Your thoughts?

Best,

D.J.


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#9 Posted on: 2011/8/4 6:33 Re: Change of XOOPS Project Structure? Let's discuss it
You need to split the projects.

X2 is a CMS, XE is a Framework. There will be too much confusion if they are hosted and supported together. I think now is the time to split the projects and let people decide which they prefer to work on.

As far as teams go.. Each team function should have one person as leader and they are allowed to choose people to help with their function (ie development, marketing/pr, website admin, financial). These leaders must have a commitment level set and if this isn't met they are replaced.

These 'function leaders' are part of a 'council'. The council makes decisions based on imformation from each of function leaders. Function leaders are not allowed to make major decisions alone.

For example: Marketing might want to take out an web ad for the latest release. Dev would have to agree that they are ready and Finance would have to agree that there is money.


I don't know the ins and outs of Mamba's business plan but he has put an enormous amount of time, effort and no doubt money into Xoops so some sort of return on investment shouldn't be discounted.




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xgarb
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#10 Posted on: 2011/8/4 11:06 Re: Change of XOOPS Project Structure? Let's discuss it
From my point of view, as a basic xoops member, I am agree with DJ proposal.
Xoops members who are really active and involved are few.
Xoops has a very mature CMS version. Obviously is possible to improve it and keep it up-to-date.
But we have to focus on XE release. This will give to Xoops leadership and a privilege position.
XE is in progress and in a few months we all can test a stable release.

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